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Number of questions permitted per day - clarification requested
Thread poster: Fiona Grace Peterson
Fiona Grace Peterson
Fiona Grace Peterson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 09:44
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
@Tommaso Aug 8, 2017

Tommaso Martelli wrote:

Why helping someone who's just lazy and doesn't even want to do some basic web research before posting a question (because he or she is apparently underpaid, which would be by no means an excuse)?


That old chestnut. You make a valid point, Tommaso, but one that's been discussed to death on the forums, and people are divided on the issue - some agree with helping these "frequent flyers", others feel they should be banned to whatever level of the Inferno particularly appeals to them that day. And it's a discussion that will probably never die as long as the system remains as it is.

Tommaso Martelli wrote:

Just craving for KudoZ points?


That, my friend, is what some call a "Pandora's Box." Enter at your peril!!!


 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:44
Member (2004)
English to Italian
yes... Aug 8, 2017

Tommaso Martelli wrote:

Just craving for KudoZ points?


it's an old chestnut... people just don't care... askers and answerers... askers want the answers and the answerers want the points... it's a diabolical mechanism... the only solution would be to remove the points system... but less KudoZ mean less traffic for the site...


 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:44
Member (2004)
English to Italian
oops... Aug 8, 2017

Fiona Grace Peterson wrote:

That old chestnut.


I wasn't copying you...


 
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:44
French to English
Quote Tina : "beyond ... your seraching skills" Aug 9, 2017

Tina Vonhof wrote:

I think the old limit of 10 per day was perfectly reasonable. If you have more than 10 questions and it can't wait till tomorrow, you have accepted a document that is beyond both your knowledge of the target language and your searching skills. By the way, I have never seen anyone ask more than 10 questions in my language combination or they have spread them out over several days but I'm sure it can happen in some other languages.


The limit of 10 questions is probably arbitrary as with any limit. If 10, why not 11? Well, in fact I think that one of the reasons Tina states is very valid. In particular "beyond your searching skills". Experience involves mistakes, sometimes biting off more than we can chew. That is also how we improve. However, the idea behind ProZ is surely to turn to fellow translators when all usual channels have been exhausted. Those channels have to include language knowledge of source/target languages, specific field knowledge, dictionaries, compared source/target online sources and general online searching abilities.

The reason there is a limit is that some people post questions when they are in a rush and cannot be bothered to look stuff up for themselves. Note that I say "some" people, not the majority. Obviously, we all work differently, some preferring to keep questions to one side and to go through them at the end, which means they might prefer to post a series of questions in a short lapse of time. However, if you are really stuck on more than 10 terms and you prefer to post them all at once, the problems did not arise all at once, but over time. Being awaare of the rule it seimply means that with a little foresight the can be posted over a couple of days.

Different types of posts exist:
- those niggly questions, where you doubt and are really not quite sure how to read the source texte, or quite how best to render it in the target language;
- a new term for which there are few sources, or where not enough time has elapsed in a field for a clear answer to emerge. In this case, field experts can assist. This is where it gest exciting as almost becomes linlguistic jurisprudence!
- those who prefer to post a series at the end of a job;
- those who are still on a steep learning curve when it comes to searching;
- then those I personally find the most irritating, the ones who simply cannot be bothered to search and/or who are not picking up on (multiple repeated) indications of where to search first and/or how to use the internet for searching for terms.

One last note to say that when I see someone not having made an effort, I can chose not to assist.

When I see a series of posts from one individual, if I chose to assist, I will not do so on all terms. I participate in KudoZ become I love the language puzzle and I genuinely enjoy helping out. It helps me to keep on my toes too! One of the factors that will determine a decision not to help will be when a series of posts comprises context that is not complete, where the 9 last posts all depend on context supplied in the first post. If a poster cannot be bothered to copy/past context, why should I bother?

Long series or repeated posts from the same person over weeks tend to become "terminological wallpaper" to my eyes!

[Edited at 2017-08-09 10:10 GMT]


 
Fiona Grace Peterson
Fiona Grace Peterson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 09:44
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
On limits Aug 9, 2017

Nikki Scott-Despaigne wrote:

The limit of 10 questions is probably arbitrary as with any limit. If 10, why not 11?


If I'm in a supermarket and go to the "Ten items only" checkout with eleven items, I very much doubt they'd send me away. If I demanded the cashier sent through forty-six items, the cashier and the other customers in line behind me would probably be somewhat ticked off, and rightfully so.


 
Fiona Grace Peterson
Fiona Grace Peterson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 09:44
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
On choice Aug 9, 2017

Nikki Scott-Despaigne wrote:

One last note to say that when I see someone not having made an effort, I can chose not to assist.


A point people keep making over and over. It is a valid point, but IMO, the fact posters are allowed to post barrel loads of questions per day means that the system has essentially changed and evolved from what it used to be. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the strategies of these "frequent flyers", the fact remains that we are no longer talking about the "granting of occasional exemptions".


 
Mervyn Henderson (X)
Mervyn Henderson (X)  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:44
Spanish to English
+ ...
Check your supermarket, Fiona ... Aug 9, 2017

For general interest, really ... it will probably vary from supermarket to supermarket, and from country to country, but I was certainly surprised to discover at our local biggie (El Corte Inglés), on arriving sheepishly at the 10-item queue with about 20 items, that an "item" means a different product. The girl said I could bring up 10 bottles of Coke, 4 bars of the same soap and 20 boxes (or 50, or 100, she said!) of the same chocolate, but all that only counted as 3 items.

They
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For general interest, really ... it will probably vary from supermarket to supermarket, and from country to country, but I was certainly surprised to discover at our local biggie (El Corte Inglés), on arriving sheepishly at the 10-item queue with about 20 items, that an "item" means a different product. The girl said I could bring up 10 bottles of Coke, 4 bars of the same soap and 20 boxes (or 50, or 100, she said!) of the same chocolate, but all that only counted as 3 items.

They might do the same where you live, too, so perhaps you can kind of mentally compensate for overquestioning on ProZ by striding up with a basket fairly creaking with the weight of 8 or 9 "items". With the rule book working in your favour this time.
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Fiona Grace Peterson
Fiona Grace Peterson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 09:44
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
On supermarkets Aug 9, 2017

Maybe the supermarket analogy is more apt than I originally thought. Maybe the evolution of the site can be compared to that of shopping, beginning with old-fashioned bartering systems. Wikipedia notes the following:

"It is said that barter is 'inefficient' because there needs to be a 'double coincidence of wants'
For barter to occur between two parties, both parties need to hav
... See more
Maybe the supermarket analogy is more apt than I originally thought. Maybe the evolution of the site can be compared to that of shopping, beginning with old-fashioned bartering systems. Wikipedia notes the following:

"It is said that barter is 'inefficient' because there needs to be a 'double coincidence of wants'
For barter to occur between two parties, both parties need to have what the other wants."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barter

So when Proz was set up at the turn of the century, there was certainly more willingness to "to turn to fellow translators when all usual channels has been exhausted" (as Nikki pointed out) - a "coincidence" of professionalism so to speak.

Now the barter system is all but obsolete, replaced by shopping services we demand to access 24 hours a day, whether in person or online, combined with a change in the characteristics of those doing translation work, and other factors I won't go into here. Many people don't want to wait. They don't want to search all the various purchasing options available, or demand better quality, because speed and minimum effort are key. They want it cheap and they want it fast.

So maybe the supermarket analogy was a bit of a stretch. But maybe not that much.

Over and out.



[Edited at 2017-08-09 10:46 GMT]
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Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:44
French to English
Since 2003 and supermarkets Aug 9, 2017

I've been on ProZ since 2003. I can recall the main arguments of the limit being imposed. Most have been posted here. I'd been translating professionally since 1994 (US Robotics and the dizzy heights of 54Kbps will send a few of us into giddy nostalgia-land)! When I joined ProZ, although I wasn't completely ignorant of the web, I observed how some of the more efficient members searched and learnt tons about how to use the web in a very short time. It contributed to short-cutting my progressing w... See more
I've been on ProZ since 2003. I can recall the main arguments of the limit being imposed. Most have been posted here. I'd been translating professionally since 1994 (US Robotics and the dizzy heights of 54Kbps will send a few of us into giddy nostalgia-land)! When I joined ProZ, although I wasn't completely ignorant of the web, I observed how some of the more efficient members searched and learnt tons about how to use the web in a very short time. It contributed to short-cutting my progressing web skills. And I will continue to hone those skills, by observing, exchanging and trying stuff out for myself. I am a grown-up after all.

When I see posters not having progressed in that area over a number of years, not having picked up on hints, sometimes very obvious suggestions on how to search, it does make me think that a number of people are basically lazy. Either that or people are just not curious enough to want to pick up the ball, run with it and learn to stand on their own two feet. As I grow older (not old, nuance...), I have patience I have always had with those who are willing, but little time for those who cannot be bothered. It's a personal choice. And I think a second chance is a sensible policy too. But the lazy free-riders who expect to get zillions of second chances, well, I just walk on by.

Fiona, your supermarket analogy is a good one. If there's no queue, yes, why not 11 articles. Then Mervyn's "ten-beep" interpretation is possible too. It's all about being reasonable of course, about herding folk into the direction of what is reasonable. Give some folk an inch, they'll take a mile. That will not change. When push comes to shove, we decide for ourselves how we react to those who systematically aim for a foot or a yard!

[Edited at 2017-08-09 11:20 GMT]
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Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 09:44
Member
English to Italian
Overhaul Aug 9, 2017

Maybe this issue, together with several others, would be better addressed by an overhaul of the 'KudoZ' system and the rules governing it.

Just to make a couple examples (that may or may not apply to your language pairs), there are askers who post questions without providing any meaningful context and who are totally unwilling to engage in discussion, and I find that paradoxical (and pretty rude). I mean, you supposedly need help, ask others for it, but are actually unwilling to do
... See more
Maybe this issue, together with several others, would be better addressed by an overhaul of the 'KudoZ' system and the rules governing it.

Just to make a couple examples (that may or may not apply to your language pairs), there are askers who post questions without providing any meaningful context and who are totally unwilling to engage in discussion, and I find that paradoxical (and pretty rude). I mean, you supposedly need help, ask others for it, but are actually unwilling to do anything to get it, except writing a one liner question? Fire and forget?

Same goes for those who just rush to answer in order to be first, without providing any explanation or reference (but just setting a high confidence level)...

Obviously, what was said about the choice whether to engage in 'KudoZ' or not still stands, but if the system itself does not function properly, it still affects us all, be it through directory ranking, or an ever degrading quality/usefulness of the resulting glossaries... And in the end, I guess that when the system was first envisioned, it wasn't supposed to be some sort of "Help-O-Matic"...
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:44
Member (2004)
English to Italian
simple explanation... Aug 9, 2017

people accept large volumes at a very low rate and then they have to kill themselves to deliver on time and probably don't have the time to do a simple research... it's not something new... and this why I don't do proofreading any more. I can tell when someone is working for peanuts... the translation hasn't been researched properly, hasn't been spell-checked and the language is awkward and sloppy... all tell-tales that point to lack of time... if you can't even re-read your translation... or t... See more
people accept large volumes at a very low rate and then they have to kill themselves to deliver on time and probably don't have the time to do a simple research... it's not something new... and this why I don't do proofreading any more. I can tell when someone is working for peanuts... the translation hasn't been researched properly, hasn't been spell-checked and the language is awkward and sloppy... all tell-tales that point to lack of time... if you can't even re-read your translation... or they might be just incompetent, obviously... Collapse


 
Enrique Cavalitto
Enrique Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 05:44
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
Comment from a ProZ.com dinosaur Aug 9, 2017

Fiona Grace Peterson wrote:

Can staff please elaborate on "Limits are automatically imposed based on an asker's membership condition"? It would seem that this limit, which was once ten questions per day, is now an ancient memory, with dozens of questions permitted per day by individual askers.


Hi Fiona,

Just a note from a ProZ.com dinosaur: KudoZ limits were established as a site rule in August 2005, just 12 years ago, and they were set to the current values of 1 question per day for non-logged-in-visitors, 5 for non-members and 15 for members (terminology was somewhat different then). Weekly limits were added later, but the daily limits never changed.

Before that time there were discretionary limits defined and enforced by moderators, but the formal limit for members was created (and kept) at 15 questions per day.

Regards,
Enrique


 
Fiona Grace Peterson
Fiona Grace Peterson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 09:44
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
@Enrique Aug 9, 2017

Thank you for your input Enrique, I appreciate it.

Enrique Cavalitto wrote:

KudoZ limits were established as a site rule in August 2005, just 12 years ago, and they were set to the current values of 1 question per day for non-logged-in-visitors, 5 for non-members and 15 for members (terminology was somewhat different then). Weekly limits were added later, but the daily limits never changed.

Before that time there were discretionary limits defined and enforced by moderators, but the formal limit for members was created (and kept) at 15 questions per day.


But your answer doesn't explain why the site now seems to be actively condoning a systematic "heavy use" of the Kudoz service. Do you feel it's acceptable that a single asker can post as many as 22, 29, 31, 32, 33, or 46 queries in a single day? Six "feeding frenzies" in six weeks, not six years.

I'd simply like to know what Proz.com staff's position is with regard to such behaviour.


 
Fiona Grace Peterson
Fiona Grace Peterson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 09:44
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
Site position Aug 14, 2017

Since no staff member has yet replied to my question, or the various points raised by members here on this thread, I shall ask again.

Fiona Grace Peterson wrote:

But your answer doesn't explain why the site now seems to be actively condoning a systematic "heavy use" of the Kudoz service. Do you feel it's acceptable that a single asker can post as many as 22, 29, 31, 32, 33, or 46 queries in a single day? Six "feeding frenzies" in six weeks, not six years.

I'd simply like to know what Proz.com staff's position is with regard to such behaviour.



Thanks in advance.


 
Alejandro Cavalitto
Alejandro Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 05:44
Member (2008)
English to Spanish
+ ...
These exemptions are granted by site staff Aug 14, 2017

Hello Fiona,

Please note that these temporary exemptions are granted (or denied) by site staff. Members of site staff have approved every one of the exemptions you list.

In general, these requests are rare, and are granted whenever needed without fear of abuse. The need to define limits on the exemptions had never presented itself, but new developments have made it necessary to update the way we handle these situations.

Hope this clarifies the position of s
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Hello Fiona,

Please note that these temporary exemptions are granted (or denied) by site staff. Members of site staff have approved every one of the exemptions you list.

In general, these requests are rare, and are granted whenever needed without fear of abuse. The need to define limits on the exemptions had never presented itself, but new developments have made it necessary to update the way we handle these situations.

Hope this clarifies the position of site staff. Please let me know if you have any question.

Best regards,
Alejandro
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Number of questions permitted per day - clarification requested






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