Is this as weird as I first thought? Or did I miss the new normal?
Thread poster: Adieu
Adieu
Adieu  Identity Verified
Ukrainian to English
+ ...
Jan 18, 2021

So, there's this company I've been freelancing pretty heavily for recently. Working with a few specific translation managers on 100% memoq projects.

SUDDENLY, some lady from that company that I haven't interacted with before is emailing me and all-but-insisting I attend a (presumably uncompensated) webinar in MS Teams on the joys of using track changes in MS Word (which very definitely ISN'T memoQ)

And here's the cherry on top:
IT'S . AT . 4 . A. M.

... See more
So, there's this company I've been freelancing pretty heavily for recently. Working with a few specific translation managers on 100% memoq projects.

SUDDENLY, some lady from that company that I haven't interacted with before is emailing me and all-but-insisting I attend a (presumably uncompensated) webinar in MS Teams on the joys of using track changes in MS Word (which very definitely ISN'T memoQ)

And here's the cherry on top:
IT'S . AT . 4 . A. M.

Yes. FOUR IN THE MORNING.

Say whaaaat?

Now I'm all internally conflicted:
1. Ignore
2. Express outrage
3. Invoice them for it at rush rates
4. Very politely suggest uploading it to youtube

I'm trying to avoid picking a fight, but isn't this outrageous????

Or is this normal now?

[Edited at 2021-01-18 16:33 GMT]

[Edited at 2021-01-18 16:33 GMT]
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Zhilin Lyu
Vadim Kadyrov
 
Peter Shortall
Peter Shortall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Romanian to English
+ ...
I don't do 4am (or even 9am, come to that) Jan 18, 2021

Is this the same company that wanted you to get up early for the "time-sensitive job" you mentioned in another thread recently, which never materialised in the end? Because if so, it seems to me that someone is taking the proverbial here! And if you don't start saying no to requests like this, they may well continue. Personally, I simply don't "do" 4am... or 5am... or any other time really before 10am. I like your first, third and fourth options but can't really pick a favourite...

Vadim Kadyrov
Kate
 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 20:16
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
The time difference may not have occurred to them Jan 18, 2021

Adieu wrote:
Now I'm all internally conflicted:
1. Ignore
2. Express outrage
3. Invoice them for it at rush rates
4. Very politely suggest uploading it to youtube

I'm trying to avoid picking a fight, but isn't this outrageous????

I don't see it as outrageous. It's more likely thoughtless. The time difference may not have occurred to them, and why assume it's unpaid? When I've been asked to attend webinars etc, I've been paid. Of course, if you actually have to get up for it at 4 am, you would certainly invoice it at some higher-than-normal rate, but only with prior agreement. So I would discount everything but option 4. Basically, discuss it with them. No need to fly off the handle until you know for sure that they're being really unfair. Even then, it would warrant a simple refusal, IMHO, no more.


expressisverbis
Rachel Waddington
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
LIZ LI
Philip Lees
Mireille BOULANGER
 
Adieu
Adieu  Identity Verified
Ukrainian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Sooo... Jan 18, 2021

Would:

"Can you do a youtube video or something? Unpaid work at 4am is kinda...."

Be too passive aggressive?


 
Jean Dimitriadis
Jean Dimitriadis  Identity Verified
English to French
+ ...
Welcome to the "resource" Jan 18, 2021

In my dealings with agencies, I don't like to be on the wrong side of information assymetry.

Did she explain why in her email?

As translators, we are communication specialists.

I am sure you will find a way to handle the situation and get your point across as needed.

[Edited at 2021-01-18 17:05 GMT]


expressisverbis
Daniela Zambrini
Josephine Cassar
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Philip Lees
Kate
Philippe Etienne
 
Adieu
Adieu  Identity Verified
Ukrainian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Nobody mentioned it being paid, though Jan 18, 2021

Sheila Wilson wrote:

Adieu wrote:
Now I'm all internally conflicted:
1. Ignore
2. Express outrage
3. Invoice them for it at rush rates
4. Very politely suggest uploading it to youtube

I'm trying to avoid picking a fight, but isn't this outrageous????

I don't see it as outrageous. It's more likely thoughtless. The time difference may not have occurred to them, and why assume it's unpaid? When I've been asked to attend webinars etc, I've been paid. Of course, if you actually have to get up for it at 4 am, you would certainly invoice it at some higher-than-normal rate, but only with prior agreement. So I would discount everything but option 4. Basically, discuss it with them. No need to fly off the handle until you know for sure that they're being really unfair. Even then, it would warrant a simple refusal, IMHO, no more.


Or is that the norm? Honestly, I can't recall ever being in a Please-attend-this-webinar situation before, certainly not in a freelance translator capacity


 
Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:16
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
I wouldn't Jan 18, 2021

Adieu wrote:
Or is that the norm? Honestly, I can't recall ever being in a Please-attend-this-webinar situation before, certainly not in a freelance translator capacity

I don't think it's the norm for a freelancer. For a company, yes, this sort of thing happens a lot. I reckon these larger companies are just thinking "Hey, we tell our own employees what to do, and they're kind of more important than freelancers, so why don't we just tell freelancers what to do as well? It's no skin off our nose, right?" There's a lack of genuine acceptance that freelancers are independent third-parties and that their time is not at the (unpaid) disposal of the client.

One agency client tried to get me to attend a webinar on a CAT tool I had already used. I politely asked if they intended to recompense me for my time. They said no. I said I would not be attending, and pointed out that their sole concern is whether my output is of good enough quality. How I use the software is up to me. If I'm inefficient in the use of that tool, that's my problem. It's only their problem if I fail to hit my deadlines.

Of course, if my quality is not good enough then they have the right to not use me again, or to ask me to perform revision. They don't have the right to indulge in this pre-emptive, unpaid, coercive grabbing of time. It's also a huge red flag in terms of the client's perception of you in particular and freelancers in general.

Dan


Peter Shortall
Christel Zipfel
Adieu
Morano El-Kholy
Jean Dimitriadis
Philip Lees
Marina Taffetani
 
Adieu
Adieu  Identity Verified
Ukrainian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Indeed, this feels like a very similar situation Jan 18, 2021

Dan Lucas wrote:

Adieu wrote:
Or is that the norm? Honestly, I can't recall ever being in a Please-attend-this-webinar situation before, certainly not in a freelance translator capacity

I don't think it's the norm for a freelancer. For a company, yes, this sort of thing happens a lot. I reckon these larger companies are just thinking "Hey, we tell our own employees what to do, and they're kind of more important than freelancers, so why don't we just tell freelancers what to do as well? It's no skin off our nose, right?" There's a lack of genuine acceptance that freelancers are independent third-parties and that their time is not at the (unpaid) disposal of the client.

One agency client tried to get me to attend a webinar on a CAT tool I had already used. I politely asked if they intended to recompense me for my time. They said no. I said I would not be attending, and pointed out that their sole concern is whether my output is of good enough quality. How I use the software is up to me. If I'm inefficient in the use of that tool, that's my problem. It's only their problem if I fail to hit my deadlines.

Of course, if my quality is not good enough then they have the right to not use me again, or to ask me to perform revision. They don't have the right to indulge in this pre-emptive, unpaid, coercive grabbing of time. It's also a huge red flag in terms of the client's perception of you in particular and freelancers in general.

Dan


What was your actual response? "Will I be compensated for my time"? If it had been at a rather inconvenient time, would you have also mentioned that or no?

And...what was their reaction to your refusal? Any friction or unpleasantness? Any subsequent loss of business with them that you might attribute to your refusal or the wording thereof?


 
Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:16
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Yes Jan 18, 2021

Adieu wrote:
What was your actual response? "Will I be compensated for my time"? If it had been at a rather inconvenient time, would you have also mentioned that or no?

That's pretty much what I said, yes, and they said "Well, no, we can't pay". I said that in that case I wouldn't do it, and presented the arguments above. They rather weakly tried to insist but I basically (albeit politely) said "I'm not doing it, and if you want to use my services, use them, if not, don't".

They did subsequently give me orders, but they're not a large client.

EDIT Would I mention the time zone? No, because then it becomes about moving the time. I would only mention that if I were otherwise prepared to undergo the training. But, you know, do you think the company expects its own staff to be in the office at 4 AM? If not, why would they expect an independent contractor to do so? And if they're incompetent enough to fail to realise that their freelancers may live in different time zones... why would you work with them?

Dan


[Edited at 2021-01-18 21:35 GMT]


Adieu
Irene (Renata) Liapis
writeaway
 
Zhilin Lyu
Zhilin Lyu
Australia
Reply to Adieu Jan 19, 2021

Adieu wrote:

Would:

"Can you do a youtube video or something? Unpaid work at 4am is kinda...."

Be too passive aggressive?


Will, from my point of view, You are totally free to decide accept or not if this is an unpaid work. Yes, a 4AM message is a little bit thoughtless, but before you make any decision, did you think about:

Is this lady working in a different time zone?
Do you want to build a relationship with the company in terms of potential contract?
Do you want to build a network with this lady for friendship or business?

If your answer for all these questions is "No", then I think you can ignore the message.


 
Heinrich Pesch
Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 22:16
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
I would ignore it Jan 19, 2021

Why bother? If they complain later I would again ignore it. Just keep up conversation with the right people.

Adieu
Kate Tomkins
Morano El-Kholy
darkokoporcic
Veronica Montserrat
 
María C Turri
María C Turri  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 17:16
Member (2019)
English to Spanish
You should try to get more information Jan 20, 2021

Here in Argentina, companies usually "offer" this kind of training for free as a way to help their resources to be more up-to-date or whatever while paying them low rates. And yes, they usually sound quite pushy when sending the invitations. Does any of this look familiar to you? I agree with our colleagues that time difference may have never occurred to the person that sent you the email but you should also take into account the cultural differences you may have with them. Here, many translator... See more
Here in Argentina, companies usually "offer" this kind of training for free as a way to help their resources to be more up-to-date or whatever while paying them low rates. And yes, they usually sound quite pushy when sending the invitations. Does any of this look familiar to you? I agree with our colleagues that time difference may have never occurred to the person that sent you the email but you should also take into account the cultural differences you may have with them. Here, many translators are happy to attend such webinars as a way to improve their knowledge (especially when they are starting out) without taking a paid training (which most certainly they cannot yet afford).
Anyway, I think you don't have enough information to be outraged... just yet. You could try to get it politely or decline by stating the obvious, either that you already manage the tool at an advanced level or that you don't need it in your current position (which may shut out some doors in case they're considering to offer other kinds of projects).
Could you tell us how it goes afterward?
Have a nice day!
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Adieu
 
Adieu
Adieu  Identity Verified
Ukrainian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I went with a milder implied refusal Jan 20, 2021

"12 PM GMT = 4 AM PST? Any chance you could upload a video of it to youtube (or a google drive if confidentiality is an issue) for those of us in other time zones?"

Oleksandr Ivanov
MollyRose
 
Fiona Grace Peterson
Fiona Grace Peterson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 21:16
Italian to English
Red flags Jan 20, 2021

The fact this agency does not seem to have realised that its freelancers live in different time zones is a massive red flag.

I would have written to them explaining that my working hours are nine to five (or whatever they are), but that you would be happy to watch a recording or attend another webinar that falls during your working hours, on the condition that this is paid for.

And I would evaluate whether to continue working for them based on the reply you receive. Alt
... See more
The fact this agency does not seem to have realised that its freelancers live in different time zones is a massive red flag.

I would have written to them explaining that my working hours are nine to five (or whatever they are), but that you would be happy to watch a recording or attend another webinar that falls during your working hours, on the condition that this is paid for.

And I would evaluate whether to continue working for them based on the reply you receive. Although the fact that the concept of time zones is apparently unknown to them, or the fact they don't seem to have a problem asking freelancers to get up in the middle of the night to stare at a screen, is frankly laughable.
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Jorge Payan
Peter Shortall
Jo Macdonald
Morano El-Kholy
 


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