| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Writing research paper on CAT tools - feedback needed Thread poster: IrisRinner (X)
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| This may well be so in some cases | May 6, 2013 |
Michael Beijer wrote:
I actually find it much faster to add all the wysiwyg formatting manually. Ctrl+I, Ctrl+B, and Ctrl+U all work just fine, for italics, bold and underlining something, respectively.
but it can hardly be faster if you have no tags at all in DVX (as is quite often the case) and 50 or so wysiwyg items to manually tag in memoQ.
| | | | Michael Beijer 
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:53
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
To be honest I would have to compare a few Word documents (I basically only translate .docx files these days) in both programs before I could say more about this. I presently don't have DVX2 installed, so I can't do that.
Michael
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:53
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
| i'm a writer, not a coder | May 6, 2013 |
Hi Hans,
The trouble with no tags in the workflow, is that there's no solution so far for less frequent formatting (like notes), so in a complex document, you will have tags anyway.
Hmm. That might be so, but just because I occasionally might need to use a footnote, I don't want to have to insert ugly little tags every time I have to make sth bold or italics or underlined. Incidentally, As far as I know, Kilgray is now working on making sub and superscript tagless as well. My idea of a well-designed UI is one where you have as few tags possible, and where the only tags that you see are absolutely necessary. This is how memoQ does it. As I have said elsewhere, we are humans, not computers. Tags are for our computers to deal with, and any good UI will try to hide as many of them from the human user as it can. With all of those tags it soon becomes easy to forget that you were actually once working on a piece of written text, not coding a PHP script. Most of what I translate is in Word docx form, has hardly any footnotes, but has tons of bold, underlining, and italics. A solution like in memoQ just seems to mirror the original format better, while of course still being a grid-based system. I suppose there is no perfect solution, yet.
Michael
| | | | | If bold, italic and underline formatting is overdone, | May 6, 2013 |
it's usually a sign that the author has nothing much to say.
If a text has "tons" of bold, underlining, and italics, it's going to be a serious distraction for the translator anyway, even if in wysiwyg.
My "perfect solution" would be a system where you could toggle in the grid between text with no formatting whatsoever (and therefore no tags), text formatted with tags and text with wysiwyg formatting. You could then do the translation first and add formatting aft... See more it's usually a sign that the author has nothing much to say.
If a text has "tons" of bold, underlining, and italics, it's going to be a serious distraction for the translator anyway, even if in wysiwyg.
My "perfect solution" would be a system where you could toggle in the grid between text with no formatting whatsoever (and therefore no tags), text formatted with tags and text with wysiwyg formatting. You could then do the translation first and add formatting afterwards before confirming each segment (or even right at the end, once the translation is finished). ▲ Collapse
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Michael Beijer wrote:
Most of what I translate is in Word docx form
I believe you, of course, but this topic is on CAT tools in general, not on Michael's usual workflow.
One of the greatest benefits of using a CAT tool, is that you can work file format independently, so you can concentrate on the text, as you pointed out. If you only translate .docx files, I'd suggest a Word-based CAT tool.
Half-baked WYSIWYG solutions show the following disadvantages:
- They don't work for all formats, in fact they are limited to MS Office (and OOo in CT, though both not in the workflow grid, of course). Since everybody (?) has Word installed, and indeed some CAT tools don't even work if it's not installed, checking the formatting is a piece of cake. In fact, when I translate in CafeTran, I only use a bit more than a quarter of my screen estate for CafeTran, less than a quarter of it for my main dictionary, and half of my screen for the original file, usually a Word document or a PDF. Context is everything.
- They typically don't work when you really need them: When you translate rather popular formats like InDesign, or unpopular formats like SDLXLIFF. I don't want to buy the extraordinarily expensive applications that would show me the formatting and don't offer me any other advantages. Please note that CafeTran is only € 80.
- They only work for a very limited number of formats, so it's quite likely you'll end up having to deal with tags anyway.
- As David mentioned, dealing with tags is not more distractive, difficult or slower than dealing with half-baked WYSIWYG formatting. On the contrary. Especially if tag dealing is as easy as in CafeTran.
I suppose there is no perfect solution
With that I can agree. We'll have to live with it.
Cheers,
Hans
| | | | | Back to topic? | May 7, 2013 |
IrisRinner wrote:
One of my big question is, why should a translator buy a Cat tool if there are free Cat tools available which are working well?
An excellent question. And a difficult one.
I think that for a CAT a newbie, a free CAT tool would be an excellent choice. "And all of them are more or less same from the point of functionality", Balasubramaniam mentioned on this topic (but unlike David, I heard it before), and it's true. So a "free" (usually as in both "free beer" and "libre") would make sense. And so would a comparison of Trados and say OmegaT (be sure to forward your bank account number to PaulF).
I started using a CAT tool last century, and choice was limited at that time. I went for DejaVu, at that time the most advanced, best supported, most controversial (in the sense of it being "the other CAT tool" you cannot possibly use because you need Windows, MS Office and Trados or you'll die) tool. DV is still at the top, but it isn't lonely over there anymore.
As a Mac user since 1987, it was tremendously difficult for me to step back in time to Windows and… WP 5.1 when I started translating in 1994, followed by buying DV in 1997. But I had to. I continued using Macs for everything else, but the main problem was not the lack of CAT tools (as everybody seems to think) but the lack of dictionaries. In 2010, DV3 was outdated, and if not for the availability of dictionaries - both local and online - for OS X, I would have bought DVX. Instead, I started looking for CAT tools for OS X, and I had a serious look at OmegaT. I decided for CafeTran because I think you should pay for software you use for your profession (though CT is cheap, it's still paid-for software), and because it was much more like DV3 I was used to. All CAT tools are "difficult" to learn, but for switchers it's arguably more difficult than for newbies.
Anyway, I like the idea of comparing an expensive CAT with a free one. Please keep us informed.
Cheers,
Hans
| | | | | Just a little more information | May 7, 2013 |
Meta Arkadia wrote:
- They don't work for all formats, in fact they are limited to MS Office (and OOo in CT, though both not in the workflow grid, of course).
- They only work for a very limited number of formats, so it's quite likely you'll end up having to deal with tags anyway.
- As David mentioned, dealing with tags is not more distractive, difficult or slower than dealing with half-baked WYSIWYG formatting. On the contrary. Especially if tag dealing is as easy as in CafeTran.
Hi,
Just to add to this quite interesting discussion. I think when we are talking about formatting tags specifically, which we seem to be focusing on here a little rather than other types of tags, then having the ability to hide them at will is very useful as it enables you to see the flow of the text more clearly. Studio will handle other formats as well in the same way. I did a little test with Selcuk and wrote an article on it here http://wp.me/p2xDjK-nn and made the files used available on dropbox if you're interested in the comparison? I would be as I don't have CafeTrans installed so couldn't look at that one. I also refrained from evaluating anyone elses tools as I don't know them well enough to do them justice... so maybe it would be interesting to see them as well?
One part of what you say I completely agree... "it's quite likely you'll end up having to deal with tags anyway". I think this is par for the course when you use a specific tool to handle all formats in a consistent manner, so being able to handle tags easily and the same way for all formats is the important thing. I have no idea how CafeTrans does this, other than reading your description (that looks a little complicated to me as an inexperienced user) but Studio does offer a consistent and simple way to manage tags.
Regards
Paul
| | | | | A little complicated? | May 7, 2013 |
SDL Support wrote:
I also refrained from evaluating anyone elses tools as I don't know them well enough to do them justice
But Iris does have to evaluate them. Two of them at least. And compare them. Wouldn't know where to begin…
Now this [Trados] is a pain err, to my eyes:
Whereas this [CafeTran] is quite acceptable:
Handling tags in CafeTran is not "a little complicated" as you say, it couldn't be easier: Just type the number of the tag followed by hitting Escape. And the numbering of tags starts with 1 in every segment, so tags like {641} will not occur. If you can count to ten, you can do it. And you don't have to select a word or a phrase before you "apply" the formatting, like you would have to do when you want to format words or phrases of which the tags are hidden.
Arguably my most/only important remark in this discussion is "One of the greatest benefits of using a CAT tool, is that you can work file format independently". In a grid-based CAT tool, the text looks always the same: The original file format, the fonts, the lay-out, the text formatting, background colour, whatever, are irrelevant, so you can concentrate on the text. Just hiding some tags (and not others) ruins this concept.
Cheers,
Hans
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| I guess it's what... | May 7, 2013 |
... you are used to. You don't have to highlight anything working in wysiwyg mode or otherwise as you can use ctrl+comma (opens the tag) and ctrl+dot (closes the tag). So not too hard and I don't even have to learn to count to ten!
I think the little numbers in CT look like subscript... but as I said it's really what you're used to.
I agree with you to some extent on the working mode though. This is a CAT tool and you should know where the tags are, so whilst I can s... See more ... you are used to. You don't have to highlight anything working in wysiwyg mode or otherwise as you can use ctrl+comma (opens the tag) and ctrl+dot (closes the tag). So not too hard and I don't even have to learn to count to ten!
I think the little numbers in CT look like subscript... but as I said it's really what you're used to.
I agree with you to some extent on the working mode though. This is a CAT tool and you should know where the tags are, so whilst I can see some benefit to being able to see the context cleanly I think tags should always be displayed. The images here are messy as they are several files together each with one segment and the orange file separators clutter the view a little.
Maybe you can try the files here... how do these display in CT?
http://goo.gl/fGPtu and http://goo.gl/Objwx
Regards
Paul ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Still tags for me | May 7, 2013 |
SDL Support wrote:
... but as I said it's really what you're used to.
How very true. That's why I claim that it's more difficult for experienced CAT users to switch tools than for new users to learn a CAT tool. And that's one of the reasons I went for CafeTran: It looks and feels more like DV3 I was used to than like OmegaT, the only competitor at the time.
Maybe you can try the files here... how do these display in CT?
I opened docx (x2), xlsx, xml, and idml, and the result is:
Only the Office files (and OOo files, but they were not in your - or Selçuk's - package) show the limited formatting in the pane to the left. Like in all other tools, as far as I know. Which proves my point: Not all kinds of formatting are there, and when you really need WYSIWYG, it's not there at all. Formatting in Word I can check whenever I want, idml formatting can only be discovered when you buy InDesign, which is very expensive (if it's still for sale, that is. I just read Adobe products will be cloud-only).
Cheers,
Hans
| | | | | Another try to go back on topic | May 7, 2013 |
Above, I mentioned that I wouldn't know how tho begin if I had to compare CAT tools. That's probably because I never studied translatology, I just fool around a bit, and have been doing so for almost 20 years.
You can of course compare features and specifications, but like in the case of Windows and Mac, that won't help you much.
However, I think you can safely say that databases are at the core of CAT tools. Nowadays, the term "resources" would cover it better, because... See more Above, I mentioned that I wouldn't know how tho begin if I had to compare CAT tools. That's probably because I never studied translatology, I just fool around a bit, and have been doing so for almost 20 years.
You can of course compare features and specifications, but like in the case of Windows and Mac, that won't help you much.
However, I think you can safely say that databases are at the core of CAT tools. Nowadays, the term "resources" would cover it better, because we now not only have access to our databases, but usually also to Internet resources and MTs. So I would definitely include in my comparison - and start with:
▪ How does the tool handle databases?
▪ What formats (industry standard formats, "real" databases that allow for SQL, text based glossaries/lexicons) can be used?
▪ Can the databases be edited (easily)?
▪ How many databases can you use in a project, and if several, can you assign priorities to them?
▪ Can you search them manually? Fast?
▪ Can you use MTs, and which ones?
▪ Can you integrate Internet resources in the UI? (especially important if you don't have much screen estate, like in the case of notebooks, and can you search them from within the grid?)
For me, the next most important thing would be the UI. After all, that's what you're looking at all day. And also because I'm a Mac: Work is so much more fun - or less boring - if you look at beautiful things.
The ease of use. How easy is it to set up a project, where are your files (both the project files and resource files) stored and does it matter? How do you add a term to the translation pane without having to type it? Are the keyboard shortcuts useful? And err... tag handling.
What can the tool do for you without your intervention? Auto-assemble? Spell-checking on the go? Adding terms to the spell-checker? Skipping segments with numbers only, matches?
How fast does the tool respond, especially when searching huge databases?
Which file formats can it handle? Is their size of any significance? Can you import different file formats in the same project?
Who is going to use the tool? How steep is the learning curve? Do they need all those features?
I give up. It's too much. But then again, I don't have to write the paper.
Cheers,
Hans ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Perhaps only in CafeTrans? | May 7, 2013 |
Meta Arkadia wrote:
Only the Office files (and OOo files, but they were not in your - or Selçuk's - package) show the limited formatting in the pane to the left. Like in all other tools, as far as I know. Which proves my point: Not all kinds of formatting are there, and when you really need WYSIWYG, it's not there at all. Formatting in Word I can check whenever I want, idml formatting can only be discovered when you buy InDesign, which is very expensive (if it's still for sale, that is. I just read Adobe products will be cloud-only).
In Studio the limited formatting you refer to (although Studio can show more formatting than just bold underline and italic) is there for Framemaker, HTML, InDesign (IDML and INX), PDF, PO, Powerpoint (ppt and pptx), Word (Doc and Docx) and XML. You can see this here: http://wp.me/p2xDjK-nn
You're right about OpenOffice not being in the zip but this would be the same... I just didn't add this to the list.
Why didn't you test the other formats?
Regards
Paul
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| Not only in CafeTran, but then again... | May 7, 2013 |
I noticed that when I re-read your article, Paul. After posting my message, of course.
Why didn't you test the other formats?
Because some of them can't be opened directly in CafeTran (legacy Office formats, pdf) which would look silly if you open the batch in a single project, and because for some files is not supported yet (pppx, idml). Igor is working on it.
Not that I care. Recently, several users asked for WYSIWYG, and Igor listens to users (though as brilliant, he obviously is not a Steve Jobs). I was heavily against it - for reasons I mentioned above - but Igor cannot possibly be stopped. Not by me anyway.
Apart from that, CT already had a solution (which included notes, etc.) since 2010 or earlier:
What Igor did, however, was implementing the old solution in the pane you'll always see in CafeTran's grid - the one top right hand, don't know the name of it - so not the source language pane, which is fine with me. Tags über Alles.
Cheers,
Hans
| | | | | I'm with you there. | May 8, 2013 |
Meta Arkadia wrote:
I think you should pay for software you use for your profession
Translators expect to be paid for their work so why shouldn't software developers?
The trouble is that some software developers expect to be paid for their work but at the same time insist that the software should be freeware. Doesn't make any sense.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 02:53
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Some comments again | May 8, 2013 |
Meta Arkadia wrote:
I think you can safely say that databases are at the core of CAT tools. Nowadays, the term "resources" would cover it better, because we now not only have access to our databases, but usually also to Internet resources and MTs. So I would definitely include in my comparison...
That is an odd notion, in my opinion. What kinds of databases a tool uses and how it uses them is not really relevant to the user. The developers of the tool chose a certain type of database which fits the workflow of the tool best, and that's that. Different tools would use different systems and different workflows, but one would expect them to be optimised for the tool itself. So it doesn't really matter whether the databases are separate or joined, industry standard or proprietary, open or closed, separately editable or not, exportable and/or importable, as long as the way the tool works is optimised for the user's pleasure.
In fact, I think the issue of databases and interoperability is only an issue for users of independent CAT tools, i.e. tools in which the translator is likely to have something other than the client has. But this brings me back to my original distinction between agency tools and freelancer tools. For a freelancer tool my biggest concern (with regard to databases) would be whether the tool can import a format that the agency tool can export, and vice versa.
▪ Can the databases be edited (easily)?
▪ How many databases can you use in a project, and if several, can you assign priorities to them?
▪ Can you search them manually? Fast?
Yes, all valid questions.
▪ Can you integrate Internet resources in the UI? (especially important if you don't have much screen estate, like in the case of notebooks, and can you search them from within the grid?)
Well, if screen real estate is limited, then the best option would be to NOT integrate resources into the UI. Integrating into the UI means setting aside space on the screen for that one function. That reduces (not increases) the amount of room on the screen.
1. The ease of use. How easy is it to set up a project, where are your files (both the project files and resource files) stored and does it matter?
2. How do you add a term to the translation pane without having to type it? Are the keyboard shortcuts useful? And err... tag handling.
3. What can the tool do for you without your intervention? Auto-assemble? Spell-checking on the go? Adding terms to the spell-checker? Skipping segments with numbers only, matches?
Yes, all valid questions.
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