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Spanish to English translations [PRO] Human Resources / Labor Law
Spanish term or phrase:despido improcedente
This is really fascinating
The only translation (and it abounds) I can find for despido improcedente is "wrongful dismissal"
However, in the context in question, the company is not really guilty of anything. They are firing due to a strategic decision. The idea behind improcedente, really, is that the employee is not at fault ... but this does not mean that the company IS. I doubt they are violating their contract by firing their employees. This would imply a moral, and legal, obligation to employ them forever (an admittedly common dream of many Spaniards...)
In any case ... is there a better translation?
In law, wrongful dismissal, also called wrongful termination or wrongful discharge, is a situation in which an employee's contract of employment has been terminated by the employer, where the termination breaches one or more terms of the contract of employment, or a statute provision or rule in employment law
Explanation: If I'm understanding the context correctly, this could work. According to the source I posted, "Termination without cause occurs when an employee is terminated from a job not because they have necessarily done anything wrong, but because the employer has decided, for whatever reason, that it no longer needs the employee’s services."
I need to count to 10 at times ... before jumping the gun / Most of my clients want UK English, so we are exact opposites in that regard: a Brit learning American, an American learning British
not to quarrel with anyone. I found Phil's response snide. But, perhaps my reaction was a bit excessive. I apologise. I don't want to quarrel with colleagues on here.
I think you're being unfair on Phil as he's an established and competent translator with a sound record of providing good options on multiple occasions
This is a reference, not the document to be translated) : Despido improcedente: Aquel en que el empresario no demuestra el incumplimiento laboral o (!) el despido no cumple los requisitos formales. Ante esta situación el empresario tiene la opción de readmitir al trabajador o pagar una indemnización de 45 días de salario por año trabajado, hasta un máximo de 42 mensualidades
I thought "without cause" was perfect, and still think it works, but for some reason there are quite a few references specifically to Spain, citing "objective dismissal". The situation does, in fact, correspond to this, as neither the employee or employer are being accused of wrongdoing (!) Thus, it would seem both options are valid, in English, though they are different in Spanish (objetivo vs. improcedente) Oh my ... truly complex, this one.
The Courts, regardless of the grounds of dismissal stated by the employer, may declare the termination to be either fair, unfair or void. If the dismissal is declared fair, the termination decision is upheld, and no further compensation is payable by the employer. https://www.cecamagan.com/en/termination-employment-relation...
Asker is after US, UK or 'offshore' ENG categories
15:19 Nov 6, 2019
'...an employee is terminated (discharged, dismissed or laid off?) from a job'.. suggests that the asker is after American English.
Notes:
1. even though lawyers (a Barrister, who had never studied employment/ labo(u)r law, gulp!) teaching on translation courses in London claim unfair & wrongful dismissal are the same, if this is a redundancy scenario, then - on the British Isles - it will be considered 'automatically unfair' and qualify for ENG common law *compensation*. www.proz.com/personal-glossaries/entry/10636750-despido-red...
2. wrongful dismissal is, in the UK, a category usually for breach of contract e.g. a soccer-player hired for two seasons is paid off with *contract damages* if fired after one season.
3. we cannot assume that the American terminology is the same. A US Wake Forest Professor of Law I know (without names-dropping) gave a whole lecture on 'revenge porn' generally without once mentioning a restraining / prohibitive or positive/ mandatory injunction as a 'gagging order' was likely to be 'contrary to the Ist Free-Speech Amendment of the US Constitution'.
from responding to my questions in the future, as I believe I have asked you before. It seems you come here to complain about the posters, the posts, and to invoke the tired "lack of context" more than anything else. Spare me.
Sus contratos de trabajo se extinguirán mediante despido reconocido como improcedente en el CMAC y con fecha de efectos del día 31 de diciembre de 2019
"Termination without cause occurs when an employee is terminated from a job not because they have necessarily done anything wrong, but because the employer has decided, for whatever reason, that it no longer needs the employee's services"
"Without cause" is not a correct translation of "improcedente" in my opinion. But it sounds like you've made up your mind and decided not to provide context.
unfortunate, for the worker, but nothing inappropriate or illegal is going on here... the company assumes the obligations entailed by dismissing without cause
"Improcedente" means that the dismissal lacks "procedencia" (legitimacy/propriety/appropiateness/lawfulness, etc.). Even if there is no intentional wrongdoing, something is "wrong" with the basis/grounds for dismissal.
"without cause" Yes! This expresses that the employee has done nothing wrong, and does not accuse the employer of a crime, or even misconduct.
* This is actually a case of a word that is being mistranslated, I do believe, countless times ... just out of carelessness. "
Wrongful dismissal" implies wrongdoing in English. When a company simply makes a strategic decision to lay off, and accept its legal obligations, this is NOT "wrongful dismissal". It is dismissal without cause.
Without Cause means termination by the Company of Key Employee's employment at the Company's sole discretion for any reason, other than by reason of Key Employee's death or Disability, and other than a termination based upon Cause.
Although "constructive dismissal" doesn't really fit in with Justin's statement that the company is not really guilty of anything so a bit of a conundrum as Justin righty points out...
"Constructive dismissal" is really when an employee resigns, but only because they company creates such a difficult/hostile working environment they have little choice. (constant reassigning to different posts, transfer to remote work centre, etc...) and, as such, would always be classed as "despido improcedente".
It's essential here we have the full context in which this is used.
"Despido improcedente", wongful/unfair dismissal, always implies wrongdoing on the part of the employer. It's true that an employee can be fired without them having committed any act that contravenes their contract. Under the last government reform of Spain's labour laws, an employee can be fired even when *justifiably* absent from work for health reasons (except maternity issues) for just 9 days out of two months. But this would be classed as "despido por causas objetivas". "causas económicas, organizativas, técnicas o de producción que afecten directamente a la empresa"
If they were justified in laying off workers, it probably means that they didn't follow the proper procedures. But could we have several sentences of Spanish context, please - otherwise we're just guessing.
No, I need the adjective, improcedente; I cannot use lay off "inappropriate" still suggests that the company is doing something wrong
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
12 mins confidence:
inappropriate termination/dismissal
Explanation: "Improcedente" also means "inadmissible" (whether legally or morally so).
If "wrongful" adds an unnecessary componential element, perhaps "inappropriate" can shift the focus to that moral/legal obligation from the employee's perspective.
Inappropriate Termination Basics: What You Should Know Sometimes, arguments in the offices outcome in an personnel becoming the focus on of wrongful termination. Although most people are aware of the ... https://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/inappropriate-terminatio...
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 10 mins (2019-11-06 13:36:04 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
an occasion when a company stops employing someone, sometimes temporarily, because the company does not have enough money or enough work
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 11 mins (2019-11-06 13:37:05 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
no guilt involved on either side
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 11 mins (2019-11-06 13:37:36 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
just a result of circumstances
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 22 mins (2019-11-06 13:48:32 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
and this gets you out of the jam :)
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 46 mins (2019-11-06 14:12:42 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
how about "constructive dismissal"?
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 48 mins (2019-11-06 14:14:29 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Definition: Constructive dismissal is a situation where the employee is forced to leave or quit his/her job not because they want to, but because of the employer’s conduct. The resignation could be the result of bad working conditions or changes in terms of employment which leaves the employee with no other choice but to quit.
Description: Constructive dismissal is very common in organisations. As such, most employees usually leave their boss and not the organisation. This could be because they don’t like the behaviour of the employer, were bullied at work, harassed, there was violence against you or the employers made you work in dangerous conditions.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 50 mins (2019-11-06 14:16:16 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
maybe this fits in with your overall context ...
David Hollywood Local time: 02:55 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 172
51 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): +3
Unfair dismissal
Explanation: As we say in the UK
Eileen Brophy Spain Local time: 07:55 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 11
Notes to answerer
Asker: No. In this case this was not the idea, but thanks for your input
