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English language (monolingual) [PRO] Science - Food & Drink / meats, fats
English term or phrase:pork, bacon
I wonder if we have a word in English for "pork" of other animals like moose, elk, deer etc. Speck in German and spek in Scandinavian languages. What word covers those parts in other animals than pig?
Explanation: It is quite common nowadays to use the terms 'bacon' and 'ham' to refer to the same kind of meats prepared from different animals; I really don't see any problem with using it here, even if it does lead to some terms that sound unwieldy simply because they are unfamiliar.
... are called "speck" in those links, but we wouldn't call these products bacon in my country. We would call them prosciutto or smoked pork neck or something like that.
The official guidance document on meat products has "Speck" in it: "'Speck' ist das unter der Haut des Schweines liegende Fettgewebe ohne Schwarte, auch mit Resten von Skelettmuskulatur. 'Backenspeck' schließt eingelagerte Speicheldrüsen, 'Bauchspeck' die Brust- und Bauchmuskulatur sowie nicht laktierende Milchdrüsen ein." https://www.bmel.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/Ernaehrung/Lebensmi...
But there's also this one: "'Fettgewebereiches Schweinefleisch': Schweinefleisch mit einem Fettgewebeanteil, wie er bei nicht übermäßig fettem Bauchspeck zu erwarten ist."
Likewise, "Fleischspieße" may contain "Speck," but the second ingredient may just be dropped from the description.
"Schweinefleischspeck or Speck aus...is not a viable concept"
Not sure how to take this. One example: "Speck ist ein unverzichtbarer Bestandteil klassischer Hausmannskost. Dabei ist das fettreiche Schweinefleisch erstaunlich international: italienischer Lardo, amerikanischer Bacon und Tiroler Speck sind gefragte Spezialitäten." http://www.essen-und-trinken.de/speck
Do you want to tell me that I don't get "Speck" at a "Fleischtheke" or "bacon" won't be included in "EU-Import von Schweinefleisch"?
As I explained to Lingua, if it is used as a general category (Schweinefleisch, Rindfleisch, etc.), it may say "-fleisch," although it won't be meat in a more restrictive sense of the word (that's why I also said this concept may be confusing to non-native speakers).
And we're not talking about contemporary usage or mass production. I had several examples showing that it's either just about "cured/dried meat" (stashed away in caches along the route) or that it's tinned bacon, etc. brought from "home."
a very "meaty" discussion; just to set the record straight, Schweinefleischspeck or Speck aus...is not a viable concept. Contemporary recipes use both, the ...fleisch and Speck, which can be the durchwachsene "Frühstücksspeck" version to keep the lean meat moist. And sure, we all have probably fried some turkey bacon etc. but that is modern fare. The key, not completely clear at the outset, is the preserved or cured aspect.
There are endless good arguments for speck as pork here. But the text I am translating refers to Arctic explorers. I am certain we are talking about "preserved meat" brought along from home, or reference to blubber acquired on site. we know that blubber is not pig, but they used the term as such. I assume the speck taken from home was NOT just bacon. I will contact the maritime museum to find out what they have in their collection.
what confused me a bit is that pork, bacon and Speck were used as if they were the same thing, in the original question. perhaps I just missed something.
Unless, and that's where it gets a bit odd I guess, you view "Schweinefleisch" as the higher-order category, including ribs, bacon, etc. You can also say "Speck aus Schweinefleisch" (better "Schweinefleischspeck," although both versions may just be colloquial German). But as actual meat without too much fat? No.
Ah, I apologize if I didn't understand you correctly. No, Speck shouldn't refer to just pork meat (although it may have a bit of meat in it). The English word used to have the same meaning as the German one. As per the OED: "Via Italian from Dutch spek, German Speck 'fat bacon, whale blubber' (in which sense it was formerly used in English): related to Old English spec."
The Scandinavian "spek" seems to have this old English sense of the word without any "pork strings" attached. But maybe the meaning is even broader. I can't tell you exactly.
The passage I quoted from Grimms Wörterbuch (19th century) was: "speck, das wie fett, schmalz, schmer, fleisch collectivum ist, scheint von vornherein nur beziehung auf das schwein zu haben."
It's a book by the Brothers Grimm - you may know their Grimm's Fairy Tales. It's one of the (or the) most comprehensive dictionary on the German language (In English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches_Wörterbuch ).
The sentence above basically says that "Speck" as in "bacon" seems to refer almost exclusively to pork, not to any other meat. So the German dictionary doesn't differ much from the OED entry on bacon, which limits the meaning accordingly.
If you say "Speck" in German, it'd be automatically assumed that you're talking about pork bacon (there's no difference between pork and pig in German anyway), unless you add a qualifier (as Charles said). For example: Entenspeck (duck bacon)
Yes, probably. I did find the topic interesting. I just would've expected them to bring "Pökelfleisch" along, the German term for "cured meat." Thus, I was merely wondering whether this was "bacon" in any sense of the English word.
One excerpt: "Caches of prepared and packaged food were relatively safe from prowling wolves or polar bears. However, when fresh meat such as caribou or muskox carcasses were cached in winter, they were usually vulnerable to these predators: 'January 8th. Started out again and crossed the gulf to the other side were [sic] Storkersen had a meat cache. Dist 17 m weather good. On our arrival there, we found the cache robed [sic] by wolfs not a splinter of meat left.'" http://www.historymuseum.ca/cmc/exhibitions/hist/cae/foo90e....
So back to "meat," i.e., it entirely depends on what kind of language Jeffrey is supposed to use. Sadly, can't agree with anyone because of the check mark for ProZ.com members.
I think it's just that back in those days, food for this kind of purpose wouldn't have made 'poncey' distinctions about niceties of preparation — all that was important was that it would keep long enough to still be edible after a long journey. A great deal of food that doesn't keep terribly well would traditionally have been preserved by some kind of curing and/or drying — even in the context of 'normal' everyday life —and it's probably not the sort of thing that would have been thought worth even mentioning.
Still find it curious that combined with "expedition," the search will only turn up "tinned bacon" or just "bacon," but otherwise, it's simply called "meat." Not quite sure what these explorers did differently than all the others.
Depending, of course, on the style and purpose of the text, that rather tends to be the way I view it as well — with anything historical, I think it is a writer's (though not necessarily a translator's!) duty to engage the reader and make the past come alive for them; I had the privilege to work for more than 10 years with a journalist who taught me so much about the history of France through his fascinating articles, in which he drew meaningful parallels with the modern world which made it easy to identify with the sometimes fairly abstruse historical context.
I would say that providing clarity for the reader should be a priority. any potential additional info relating to historical differences of the term may be put in a footnote (optionally)
"Speck in German and spek in Scandinavian languages"
At least when it comes to German, your statement does not appear to be true. "Speck" as in Grimms Wörterbuch (that's from before the time of the polar expedition): "speck, das wie fett, schmalz, schmer, fleisch collectivum ist, scheint von vornherein nur beziehung auf das schwein zu haben." http://woerterbuchnetz.de/DWB/?sigle=DWB&mode=Vernetzung&lem...
My text is from 1901. I think they used spekk to cover a wider range of nutritional products than the pork implied in a modern context. Some times it meas "blubber" if taken raw or fresh from a seal or whale. Other times it is from the supplies/provisions taken on board months or years ago - that would be the cured pig. Other times they made it or bought it from the locals or local merchant.
salt (cured) venison? Bacon isn't really speck, but "durchwachsener Speck" and the fatty piece is generally called salt pork, streaked with lean it is bacon...
Yes, I have heard "flitch". But it won't do you here any better than bacon. First, flitch is not a generic synonym for bacon as a type of meat; it's a quantity (a side) of bacon (and I find it can also mean a halibut steak, which I didn't know). And it's specifically pork, so it doesn't offer any advantage over "bacon".
Finding an outdated and unused term (for me at least) for cured/salted side meat. Ever hear that one before? I still feel that bacon is wrong. Bacon is pig in all my dictionaries. Pemmican is not "flesk" or bacon either. Pemmican is pemmican.
Asker, that last info changes things and I wish you'd given it at the beginning. I've added a note. I thought of putting a new answer but it wouldn't match your inital question so will just add it on
The document is about polar explorers 1901-6. They either hunt caribou or bring speck with them in their provisions. Or both! Generally speaking, they mean cured fatty meat. I can't write "the cured or salted fatty parts of (animal)" to replace "spekk". It just sounds stupid. And "caribou bacon" feels even stupider. Thanks!
Jeffrey - do you mean the subcutaneous fat layer that pigs have (also wales etc.) - Swedish späck - or du you mean cured (smoked, salted) meat - bacon?
I know what bacon is. I know what venison is. Venison is the name of the meat, in general, for game. I COULD say "goat bacon", "lamb bacon" or "venison bacon" But surely that is not specific or correct?
Explanation: I think that in practice this may be what you want. Amundsen certainly had it.
"Pemmican is a concentrated mixture of fat and protein used as a nutritious food. It is part of Canadian cuisine. [...] It was widely adopted as a high-energy food by Europeans involved in the fur trade and later by Arctic and Antarctic explorers, such as Sir Ernest Henry Shackleton, Fridtjof Nansen, Robert Falcon Scott and Roald Amundsen. The specific ingredients used were usually whatever was available; the meat was often bison, deer, elk, or moose." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemmican
Alternatively, I think you could just use "speck". I don't feel that "venison" is suitable, however qualified.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 hr (2016-09-09 11:11:46 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Bacon, unqualified, always means from pigs. Qualified (elk bacon, moose bacon, etc.) it sounds odd to me. And of course you have the problem that several different kinds of animal are involved, so you're going to end up with a cumbersome translation like that.
Charles Davis Spain Local time: 23:21 Does not meet criteria Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 8
Explanation: The Micmac took what was needed and wasted little. The meat was cured. The rib cage was sometimes cooked whole, mounted over a fire or left under a tin stove. When cooked the ribs were withdrawn and the slab of meat rolled and packed. The head was roasted, suspended over an open fire or boiled in a large pot. The resulting combination of flesh, fat and brain assumed a texture like tinned corned beef when cooled. Entrails were eaten; intestines were flushed and plaited. After a kill hunters often indulged in a “gut feed,” boiling intestines with liver, heart and lungs. Hip and leg bones were broken into short lengths and boiled until the fat melted. The marrow was removed and either eaten alone or mixed with fat. “I give you a taste of it and I'll have to drive you off with my gun,” advises Peter Oliver of Bay St. George. “We didn't waste anything, never threw anything away, except maybe for the feet. Even then some of us used to eat them too, like the pig's feet you can buy in the stores today.”
Black bears were hunted as they fed on ripe berries on the barrens and rocky hillsides. Bear fat was rendered in a large pot. Sometimes caribou fat was added to produce a firmer texture. Blood and other impurities were skimmed off and the melted fat was poured into birch bark vessels and left to cool overnight. The rendered fat, muinomi, was used as cooking oil and butter. In fall a prime bear yielded considerable fat, enough to fill a large flour sack in some cases.
Bear meat was eaten fresh or preserved either by smoking or boiling in salted water. Cormack learned bear meat was “by many of the Indians esteemed next to that of the beaver's, and it has the peculiar quality of not clogging the stomach, however much of it is eaten.” Organs and entrails were eaten as a matter of taste. One old hunter, Noel Louis, used bear stomach in a unique fashion. It was turned inside out, stuffed with caribou or beaver, sewn tight and boiled for several hours. The stomach, if properly sewn, would preserve the stuffing for some time.
Sloi is a product typically prepared in autumn in Marginimea Sibiului, Bran and Hunedoara (pastoral communities around the Carpathian Mountains), when the sheep return from the mountains.
Curing is a technique which basically involves preserving the meat in salt. This was one of the most common ways of keeping meat fresh in the days before refrigeration. Some still use it today, but now it is more about enhancing the flavor of the meat, not about preserving it.
Helena Chavarria Spain Local time: 23:21 Meets criteria Works in field Native speaker of: English
Notes to answerer
Asker: who ever said the "Eskimo" doesn't eat greens?
I understand that one of the delicacies was to suck the intestines of caribou, seal etc.
what a rich source of vegetation, fiber and vitamins that must be!
