both of whose

English translation: Born to/by

13:29 May 9, 2019
English language (monolingual) [PRO]
Social Sciences - History
English term or phrase: both of whose
A man had two wives and three children. One of the children was from the first wife, while the others were from the second wife.

The sentence I need help with is similar to the following:

His sons were Fred (whose mother was Mary Smith), George, and Bob (both of whose mother was Barbara Applebee).

"Both of whose" sounds extremely awkward to me, and the more I look at it, the more I am losing perspective.

Is there a more correct way to put this?
Arabic & More
Jordan
Selected answer:Born to/by
Explanation:
His sons were Fred (born to Mary Smith), George, and Bob (both born to Barbara Applebee).
or
His sons were Fred (by Mary Smith), George, and Bob (both by Barbara Applebee)

Unless there is a reason to keep the sentence structure that way, however, you're even more likely to find it phrased this way:

He had a son, Fred, with/by Mary Smith, and two sons, George and Bob, with/by Barbara Applebee

or:

He had a son with Mary Smith, Fred; and two sons with Barbara Applebee, George and Bob.

or even:

He had three sons: Fred, by Mary Smith; and George and Bob, by Barbara Applebee.
Selected response from:

Lincoln Hui
Hong Kong
Local time: 09:58
Grading comment
Many thanks to everyone for your help and suggestions. The punctuation in the sentence I posted is super-awkward, which perhaps added to my inability to see things clearly after a rather long day (week) of work, but I think I will be using "born to" after I clean up that issue. Many of the other suggestions were very good, however.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED
4 +5both of them sons of... / both of whom were sons of...
Charles Davis
5 +1whose
Mark Robertson
4 +1Born to/by
Lincoln Hui
4the mother of both of them was
Nazim Taghiyev
3their (see explanation)
Peter Szekretar


Discussion entries: 2





  

Answers


34 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +5
both of them sons of... / both of whom were sons of...


Explanation:
Peter's suggestion covers it, but if you would prefer to preserve the same basic syntax I think you'll have to turn it round and do it like this. You could put "children" or "offspring" instead of "sons".

I'm sure "both of whose mother" doesn't work. In that construction "both" has to refer to what comes after "whose" (e.g., "both of whose sisters", two sisters, both of these sisters); it can't refer to the person or persons corresponding to "whose" (i.e., to the possessor).

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 03:58
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 52

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  philgoddard: You could also say "and George and Bob, whose mother was". The sentence is badly written.
11 mins
  -> Yes, I think that would work and would be neater. You should post it separately!

agree  Nazim Taghiyev
19 mins
  -> Thanks, Nazim :-)

agree  Tina Vonhof (X)
1 hr
  -> Thanks, Tina :-)

agree  Ella Finn
1 hr
  -> Thanks, Ella :-)

agree  B D Finch
1 day 28 mins
  -> Thanks, Barbara!
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

12 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
their (see explanation)


Explanation:
The sons were Fred (his mother was Mary Smith), George and Bob (their mother was Barbara Applebee).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 48 mins (2019-05-09 14:17:29 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or something like this (if you're ready to modify the sentence a bit more):

"Mary Smith gave birth to his son called Fred, and Barbara Applebee was the mother of his other two sons: George and Bob."

Peter Szekretar
France
Local time: 03:58
Native speaker of: Hungarian

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  B D Finch: While you explain it correctly, and your suggested wordings are not wrong, they are poor style and a native-speaker of English would be unlikely to put it that way.
1 day 49 mins
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

51 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
the mother of both of them was


Explanation:


Nazim Taghiyev
Azerbaijan
Local time: 05:58
Native speaker of: Native in AzerbaijaniAzerbaijani
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

56 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
Born to/by


Explanation:
His sons were Fred (born to Mary Smith), George, and Bob (both born to Barbara Applebee).
or
His sons were Fred (by Mary Smith), George, and Bob (both by Barbara Applebee)

Unless there is a reason to keep the sentence structure that way, however, you're even more likely to find it phrased this way:

He had a son, Fred, with/by Mary Smith, and two sons, George and Bob, with/by Barbara Applebee

or:

He had a son with Mary Smith, Fred; and two sons with Barbara Applebee, George and Bob.

or even:

He had three sons: Fred, by Mary Smith; and George and Bob, by Barbara Applebee.

Lincoln Hui
Hong Kong
Local time: 09:58
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in ChineseChinese, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 12
Grading comment
Many thanks to everyone for your help and suggestions. The punctuation in the sentence I posted is super-awkward, which perhaps added to my inability to see things clearly after a rather long day (week) of work, but I think I will be using "born to" after I clean up that issue. Many of the other suggestions were very good, however.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  B D Finch: Except for your third attempt, where the punctuation is wrong. That version might work better in speech than in writing.
1 day 8 mins
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

19 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
whose


Explanation:
"Both of" is redundant.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2019-05-09 14:37:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The punctuation of the source text is incorrect. The corrected sentence and its non-defining relative clauses, should read:

His sons were Fred, whose mother was Mary Smith, and, George and Bob, whose mother was Barbara Applebee.



Mark Robertson
Local time: 02:58
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Charles Davis: But if you omit "both of" we are no longer sure who George's mother was; "whose" could refer just to Bob, and George might, for example, be illegitimate or of unknown maternity.
8 mins
  -> Not if the source text is punctuated correctly.

agree  Sara Gazo
4 hrs
  -> Thanks

neutral  B D Finch: Agree with Charles' comment above. The punctuation is a plague of commas and would be confusing to hear when read out.
1 day 48 mins
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)



Login or register (free and only takes a few minutes) to participate in this question.

You will also have access to many other tools and opportunities designed for those who have language-related jobs (or are passionate about them). Participation is free and the site has a strict confidentiality policy.

KudoZ™ translation help

The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.


See also:
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search