McName

English translation: As the client signs it (see below)

18:22 Aug 19, 2010
English language (monolingual) [PRO]
Art/Literary - Names (personal, company)
English term or phrase: McName
Hi all,

Is there a rule for writing McNames (McCambridge, Mckenna, Mc Nicoll, etc) ?

My boss (very intelligent English linguist) says that These names must be written like this: McCambridge, i.e. Mc and the 2nd part together, and the 2nd part with the capital.

But some of our clients sign Mckenna (no capital in the middle) or Mc Nicoll (in two words).

My Irish colleague (another English linguist) says that I should write them as the people sign and this is the only rule. The people know better who to write their names.

But my boss insists that I write these names like McCambridge.

Is there a rule for these names?

Thank you
yanadeni (X)
Canada
Local time: 19:33
Selected answer:As the client signs it (see below)
Explanation:
From Wikipedia (first part references to Oxford Manual of Style, but I don't have a copy to check):

In English, practice varies when the name starts with a particle with a meaning such as "from" or "the" or "son of".
* Some of these particles (Mac, Mc, M, O) are always capitalized; others (L’, Van) are usually capitalized; still others often are not (d’, de, di, von). The compound particle de La is usually written with the 'L' capitalized but not the 'd'.
* The remaining part of such a name, following the particle, is always capitalized if it is set off with a space as a separate word, or if the particle was not capitalized. It is normally capitalized if the particle is Mc, M, or O. In other cases (including Mac), there is no set rule (both Macintyre and MacIntyre are seen, for example).

So perhaps: always capatalis if there's a space or if the particle wasn't capitalised, otherwise follow how the client signs it (this seems like the most appropriate option to me, anyway).


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Note added at 25 mins (2010-08-19 18:47:14 GMT)
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Therefore, McCambridge, Mckenna and Mc Nicoll are all okay.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 32 mins (2010-08-19 18:54:36 GMT)
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Sorry, the rule (here) should be: always capitalise after a space, otherwise follow how the client signs it.
Selected response from:

Tom Fudge
Local time: 23:33
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED
3 +10As the client signs it (see below)
Tom Fudge
Summary of reference entries provided
Taña Dalglish

Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


16 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +10
mcname
As the client signs it (see below)


Explanation:
From Wikipedia (first part references to Oxford Manual of Style, but I don't have a copy to check):

In English, practice varies when the name starts with a particle with a meaning such as "from" or "the" or "son of".
* Some of these particles (Mac, Mc, M, O) are always capitalized; others (L’, Van) are usually capitalized; still others often are not (d’, de, di, von). The compound particle de La is usually written with the 'L' capitalized but not the 'd'.
* The remaining part of such a name, following the particle, is always capitalized if it is set off with a space as a separate word, or if the particle was not capitalized. It is normally capitalized if the particle is Mc, M, or O. In other cases (including Mac), there is no set rule (both Macintyre and MacIntyre are seen, for example).

So perhaps: always capatalis if there's a space or if the particle wasn't capitalised, otherwise follow how the client signs it (this seems like the most appropriate option to me, anyway).


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 25 mins (2010-08-19 18:47:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Therefore, McCambridge, Mckenna and Mc Nicoll are all okay.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 32 mins (2010-08-19 18:54:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry, the rule (here) should be: always capitalise after a space, otherwise follow how the client signs it.


    Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalization#Compound_names
Tom Fudge
Local time: 23:33
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  jccantrell: How the person uses it himself or herself. I worked with a guy named "Mclain" and that is how he wanted it. No caps, no spaces.
39 mins

agree  Jack Doughty
1 hr

agree  Maria Fokin: nowadays there are all kinds of name spellings. i, for one, would get rather annoyed if someone started telling me how to spell my own name.
1 hr

agree  kmtext: And don't confuse Mc with Mac. It's a very common and irritating error.
11 hrs

agree  Ildiko Santana
11 hrs

agree  Alison MacG: Always use the format used by the writer. If you don't know yet (e.g. new client), use capital and no space (as boss says). Use of a space is rather uncommon - often the result of computer systems not being able to cope with a capital in middle of word.
14 hrs

agree  Rolf Keiser
15 hrs

agree  Tina Vonhof (X): Technically it should be as your boss says, but I would always stick to the way the client writes it.
23 hrs

agree  CHEN-Ling
9 days

agree  conejo: Do it as they sign it... In the US & Canada, a long time ago, the immigrants may not have spelled their name accurately, or the immigration person didn't spell it accurately, or the spelling often was changed. So there is not a standard rule.
11 days
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Reference comments


37 mins peer agreement (net): +1
Reference

Reference information:
Interesting perspective by the other asker. Perhaps, I am old school but I tend to agree with your boss (i.e. that it be written "McD", "McP"). IMO, how the person writes his/her name/or what is on his/her birth certificate, does not necessarily mean it is "linguistically correct". Over time, names have been "corrupted".

The second link is particularly informative.

http://www.cimcom.ca/genealogy/macname.htm
According to this rule, such names as MacGregor, MacKenzie, should be spelled with a capital letter, as Donald, Dougall, Gregor and Kenzie (used for Kennith), are proper names, while names like MacIntosh and MacPherson would be spelled with a small letter. The rule appears logical enough, and certainly no one can say that a MacPherson, for instance, who spells his or her name "Macpherson" is wrong. At the same time it is very desirable that there should be uniformity in spelling, and therefore it is best, if the practice can be justified, to use the capital letter even when the word following the "Mac" is not a proper name.

http://macvaysia.com/2009/11/10/mac-or-mc/

First things first: Both Mac and Mc mean exactly the same thing. Mac means son in both Scottish Gaelic and Irish. Contrary to popular belief, if does not mean son of. Instead, the word mac before a name places that name in the genitive case, which in Gaelic necessitates what’s called lenition or aspiration. In plain terms, that means the first letter of the name changes a bit. Mc is simply a contraction of Mac. There are all sorts of theories out there about the difference between Mac and Mc, the most common being that Mac is used by Protestant and Mc by Catholics (and also that Mac is Scottish, Mc is Irish; from these two misconceptions we get the origins of Irish Catholics being called Mickeys in America), but while that may be true in some cases (more on a possible example below), in most cases Mc is nothing more than a contraction of Mac.

Mac is always considered an addition to a name. Before there was a “Donald’s Son” there was a “Donald”. In both Scotland and Nova Scotia, names beginning with Mac were traditionally alphabetized under the first letter of the second name — MacArthur under “A”, MacZeal under “Z”. Many Scots dropped “Mac” as they became Anglicized or emigrated, “Mac Wyeth” becoming simply “Wyeth”. “Kinzie” is from “MacKenzie”. The one notable exception is the Innes and MacInnes families, each quite distinct. The Innes family have Pictish roots and are from the east coast of Scotland with a red tartan. The MacInnes are of Gaelic origin from the west coast and wear a green tartan.

HTH!

Taña Dalglish
Jamaica
Native speaker of: English

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
neutral  Joshua Wolfe: Linguistically, it should be one word, with two capitals. I, too, would be tempted to tell people they don't know how to spell their name correctly. But that is a quick way to offend people.
5 hrs
  -> Offending or not, many don't know how to spell and as I explained names have been "corrupted". I tried to be careful in drafting my thoughts and merely offered the references simply from a linguistic perspective, & precisely why I offered no def. ans.
agree  kmtext: Good references. Being facetious, another option would be to write them in Gaelic, and thus avoid the problems caused by Anglicisation. (It also avoids naming women/girls "sons".)
11 hrs
  -> Thank you kmtext. The link is also interesting from the point of view that it clears up a misconception that "Mc/Mac" means "son of" which the 2nd ref. I included seems to dispell. Again, thank you.
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