lwfg, swfg

09:56 Aug 9, 2016 

Latitude is and always has been north or south (a bit counter-intuitive, really, since it makes you think of a lateral dimension); longitude is west or east. If "lwfg" is to do with either (which I think it is), it's longitude. We can deduce this partly because "SB" and "Bredde" both refer to latitude and partly because latitude is stated first and longitude second, and also because of the number of degrees in the examples we have.

09:29 Aug 9, 2016 

N.B. The mean of the three sets is 66 degrees 9 minutes 25 seconds, and the mean of Mr. Green’s Computations from the same Observations was 66 degrees 14 minutes 0 seconds, and the mean of his computations and mine will be 66 degrees 11 minutes 32 seconds, and therefore the Longitude of Cape St. Diego or the North-West entrance of Strait Le Maire will be 66 degrees 0 minutes 0 seconds West from Greenwich, and its latitude 54 degrees 39 minutes South.*

17:14 Aug 7, 2016 

In Yorkshireman's example, "paa 5 grader No. Bredde 29 grader Lwfg", Bredde means latitude. Latitude, of course, is north or south. "No." must surely be nord. So I presume "5 grader No. Bredde" must mean latitude 5 degrees north.

That being so, you would have thought that 29 grader Lwfg must be the longitude. And since 29 degrees east is in Africa, it must be 29 degrees west, in the middle of the Atlantic, not all that far from the coast of Brazil.

So then Lwfg would mean longitude, just as Bredde means latitude.

"Longitude west from Greenwich" is a common expression. I think it could well stand for that.

But I don't know what "swfg" would be. Something else west from Greenwich, presumably?

But the only kind of person who is likely to know this is a maritime archivist. Perhaps it would be worth contacting the State Archives:
http://www.arkivverket.no/arkivverket/Arkivverket/Om-oss/Akt...

11:01 Aug 7, 2016 

Is this is a wreck site or a position logged on a voyage?

If a wreck, this is usually defined by "last known position" and "estimated position at the time of sinking" (LW = location of wreck?)

BTW: the abbreviation doesn’t have to be four separate words - it could well be a contraction of a single word or expression - which might knock the "w"-word assumption on the head.

A bit of conjecture: could LW and SW refer to radio equipment?

or maybe LW = Light Wind / SW = Strong Wind?

or Light Waves From Ground/Strong Waves From Ground

10:36 Aug 7, 2016 

Ah, now that's interesting! SS Peter & Paul are approx. 29° W (though almost 6° further North, near the Equator) — so that seems to rule out any suggestion that S might be E and L W.
I think Yorkshireman's suggestion that it could mean 'Log' and 'Sextant' are increasingly plausible options, tying in with my own original suggestion of 'dead reckoning' (= log), and as you say, being more in line with an EN term using a 'W'.

10:23 Aug 7, 2016 

The Norwegians basically do not use the letter W outside of place names.
makes me suspect it is an imported, english word.

10:19 Aug 7, 2016 

5o4' SB and 28o34' Swfg
near the saint peter and saint paul archipelago

10:01 Aug 7, 2016 

http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/nn-no/ft/skip/sf0110002...

The ship's current position is given here as: paa 5 grader No. Bredde 29 grader Lwfg = 5 degrees north, latitude 29 degrees "Lfwg"

So your abbreviation must be something to do with defining latitude.

Possibly positions determined by log (L) and sextant (S)

09:51 Aug 7, 2016 

Another thought, though only, I'm afraid, one of those nasty guesses you don't want...

If we acknowledge that SB was used for 'southern hemisphere), i.e. not conforming to the modern convention of simply using 'S' or 'N', then your 'longitude west from Greenwich' (gvien that we now know if definitely IS west) might make sense, and in the case, given the non-standard way it is expressed, how about something with 'southing' — though I can't see why that would be 'west from Greenwich'? Unless it was simply the way they would in those days have expressed 'latitude south, and west from Greenwich'
You still haven't shown us the example of where the 'swfg' is used — and how does it tie in with the co-ordinates of the ship's positon as you know it?

09:46 Aug 7, 2016 

Ah yes, if you now know that the ships was in the Weddel Sea, then we do at least know it is W and not E. But I don't see any reason for your "of course — while YOU may know that from the context in front of you, it is certainly far from obvious to the rest of us.

You introduced the confusion yourself, I'm afraid, by suggesting latitude west from Greenwich — of course it should have been 'longitude'!

And I didn't dispute that 'from' might have been used in the past, I was at pains to point out that 'of' would be more modern usage.

09:39 Aug 7, 2016 

Of course, the ship is near Cape Horn and near the Weddel Sea.
I have asked all my Norwegian and Danish colleagues, and a few professional norwegian sailors. None of them know. Because the term is outdated of course.
The criticism that OF Greenwich is meaningless of course; go back a couple hundred years and you will find that sailors like Cook spoke of from Greenwich
that is, Longitude West From Greenwich.
Still hoping to hear from someone who knows, no guessing

09:06 Aug 7, 2016 

Also, do you already know what that 'SB' stands for in your first co-ordinate?

For info, 65°S 57°E would be at see just off Antarctica in the south of the Indian Ocean roughly at the same longitude as Madgascar, whereas 65°S 57°W would be in the sea off Antarctica a bit to the east of Cape Horn; don't know if that gives any clues at all?

08:40 Aug 7, 2016 

Neither of your suggestions would really make sense, since 'Latitude' refers to North / South orientation, so 'latitude west' is meaningless, and 'latitude south-west' even more so, since latitude and longitude refer to perpendicular directions, so again here, a diagonal is meaningless.

Also, at least in modern usage, we would say 'west OF Greenwich', not 'from'; in any case, ALL longitudes are with respect to the Greenwich meridian, and all latitudes with respect to the Equator.

You haven't shown us how the 'swfg' is being used; is it expressed the same way with degrees and minutes?

I suspect these are leftovers from the original Norwegian... perhaps you could research how longitudes and latitudes are expressed in Norwegian, that might give you some clues?

The opposition of 'lwfg' and 'swfg' immediately made me think of 'long' and 'short', but I can't see how that would fit anyway!

If this is about a ship's position, consider the fact thet 'dead reckoning' is sometimes used, so don't know if it might be something to do with the method used to estimate the position?