gravé ou sculpté en creux

English translation: engraved or sculpted in low relief

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:gravé ou sculpté en creux
English translation:engraved or sculpted in low relief
Entered by: angela3thomas

17:05 Jul 19, 2017
French to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Archaeology / ancient art
French term or phrase: gravé ou sculpté en creux
Hi again!
DOC: 1907 Museum catalog of ancient Egyptian mirrors. Catalog entry.
CONTEXT: 44102. Moule gabarit pour manche de miroir ou écrin de miroir. - Bois. [....] Cet objet est une tablette d'acacia faite de deux lais longitudinaux assemblés à la colle. On y a ***gravé ou sculpté en creux*** dans la moitié inférieure, un manche de miroir en forme de GLYPH, mesurant 0 m. 11 cent. de long et 0 m. 01 cent. de profondeur dans les parties les plus creuses.

Ignore the 44012 on the plate, it should read 44102.
https://books.google.com/books?id=qhs2AQAAMAAJ last plate # XXV
I tried to get the link to the actual plate:
https://books.google.com/booksid=qhs2AQAAMAAJ&lpg=PA53&dq="M...
SAME OBJECT, DIFFERENT SOURCES:
"Upon the upper shelf is a wooden plaque (n° 936), its height is 0 m. 21 cent., its width 0 m. 129 mill. Upon its surface the shapes of the handle of a mirror and two little pans have been carefully scooped out. The wax was run into these hollows, and the moulds which were used in casting the articles in question were built up upon it."
"Plaque en bois, où l'on a évidé avec soin les formes d'un manche de miroir et de deux petits godets. On y coulait de la cire sur laquelle on établissait ensuite les moules qui servaient à la fonte des objets en question."

ATTEMPT:On the bottom half, a GLYPH-shaped mirror handle, measuring 11-cm long and as much as 1-cm deep in places, was engraved or carved into grooves.
ISSUE: Not sure if I've translated this correctly as I found that "en creux" can go with either or both sculpté and gravé. Engraved or sculpted sound odd, to me it should be fairly easy to differentiate between them.
Thanks in advance for any clarification!
angela3thomas
United States
engraved or sculpted in low relief
Explanation:
Only problem I have with this is that, in the plate, from the shadows it casts, it looks to me like the handle is in "positive" relief, relative to the background.

How it would serve as a [lost wax] "moule" if this were the case is beyond me.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 36 mins (2017-07-19 17:42:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Phil is right, of course:

"RELIEF: a. Moulding, carving, stamping, etc., in which the design **stands out from a plane surface** so as to have a natural and solid appearance. Also: work done in this way; the part which so projects." --OED

The answer lies in the proper terminology for "reverse relief" --in which the "design" is embedded below the surface of the plane, rather than "standing out" from it.

What the hell is that called?

The only thing I can think of is to insert "reverse" before "relief" in my answer.

It's a "reverse low relief"

But I'm not happy with that.

It seems to me that, at least after the earliest dynasties, Egyptian figurative relief sculpture (including hieroglyphic lettering) was as often in (literal) relief --i.e., "positive," standing out from the surface plane-- as it was in "negative" relief.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 50 mins (2017-07-19 17:56:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Just to make clear what I'm talking about...

"Positive" ["regular"] Relief:

http://cdn.history.com/sites/2/2014/01/hesire-relief-P.jpeg (Which looks like it's pretty early, to me, first few dynasties.)

http://www.veniceclayartists.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/... (somewhat later, judging by the style and the "blue crown" which I believe did not come in before the Middle Kingdom.)

And what I'm calling "reverse relief" (the figures *below* the surface ground):

http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1375/761157146_5f85a65e96_o.jp...

http://www.thefakebusters.com/relief carving/photos relief c...

Note that, in either technique, there is considerable "modeling" possible on the surface of the figure itself --i.e., the reverse relief benefits from having the outline of the figure much clearer and more easily "read" but, within that outline, the actual surface of the figure can be treated with great subtlety.

Examples of both techniques exist in their thousands.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2017-07-19 18:06:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Perhaps "intaglio" or "sunken relief"

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Egyptian reliefs

"Reliefs are either sunken or raised. Sunk, or coelanaglyphic, relief, in which the outlines of modeled forms are incised in a plane surface, was used primarily in ancient Egyptian architecture and in ancient Greek, Roman, and Oriental glyptics. A variation of sunk relief is intaglio—the exact reverse of raised relief. Intaglio was intended as a means to achieve a miniature low relief."

I'd go with "sunken relief" --fundamentally oxymoronic as that might be, as Phil suggested. And "intaglio" being a somewhat obscure term (which B. does not use himself.

So, if I had it to do all over: "engraved or sculpted in sunken relief"

It's still a "relief" in that the forms are articulated in various planes, but the whole figure is "sunken."

Which still leaves the question of why the damned thing looks (to my tired eyes) to be carved in *actual* (raised) relief in the photograph.

But, yet once again, it's B.'s text which is being translated, no matter whether it makes sense or not.
Selected response from:

Christopher Crockett
Local time: 07:07
Grading comment
Thank you very very much for the incredible info and discussion!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3engraved or sculpted in low relief
Christopher Crockett


Discussion entries: 10





  

Answers


13 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
engraved or sculpted in low relief


Explanation:
Only problem I have with this is that, in the plate, from the shadows it casts, it looks to me like the handle is in "positive" relief, relative to the background.

How it would serve as a [lost wax] "moule" if this were the case is beyond me.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 36 mins (2017-07-19 17:42:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Phil is right, of course:

"RELIEF: a. Moulding, carving, stamping, etc., in which the design **stands out from a plane surface** so as to have a natural and solid appearance. Also: work done in this way; the part which so projects." --OED

The answer lies in the proper terminology for "reverse relief" --in which the "design" is embedded below the surface of the plane, rather than "standing out" from it.

What the hell is that called?

The only thing I can think of is to insert "reverse" before "relief" in my answer.

It's a "reverse low relief"

But I'm not happy with that.

It seems to me that, at least after the earliest dynasties, Egyptian figurative relief sculpture (including hieroglyphic lettering) was as often in (literal) relief --i.e., "positive," standing out from the surface plane-- as it was in "negative" relief.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 50 mins (2017-07-19 17:56:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Just to make clear what I'm talking about...

"Positive" ["regular"] Relief:

http://cdn.history.com/sites/2/2014/01/hesire-relief-P.jpeg (Which looks like it's pretty early, to me, first few dynasties.)

http://www.veniceclayartists.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/... (somewhat later, judging by the style and the "blue crown" which I believe did not come in before the Middle Kingdom.)

And what I'm calling "reverse relief" (the figures *below* the surface ground):

http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1375/761157146_5f85a65e96_o.jp...

http://www.thefakebusters.com/relief carving/photos relief c...

Note that, in either technique, there is considerable "modeling" possible on the surface of the figure itself --i.e., the reverse relief benefits from having the outline of the figure much clearer and more easily "read" but, within that outline, the actual surface of the figure can be treated with great subtlety.

Examples of both techniques exist in their thousands.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2017-07-19 18:06:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Perhaps "intaglio" or "sunken relief"

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Egyptian reliefs

"Reliefs are either sunken or raised. Sunk, or coelanaglyphic, relief, in which the outlines of modeled forms are incised in a plane surface, was used primarily in ancient Egyptian architecture and in ancient Greek, Roman, and Oriental glyptics. A variation of sunk relief is intaglio—the exact reverse of raised relief. Intaglio was intended as a means to achieve a miniature low relief."

I'd go with "sunken relief" --fundamentally oxymoronic as that might be, as Phil suggested. And "intaglio" being a somewhat obscure term (which B. does not use himself.

So, if I had it to do all over: "engraved or sculpted in sunken relief"

It's still a "relief" in that the forms are articulated in various planes, but the whole figure is "sunken."

Which still leaves the question of why the damned thing looks (to my tired eyes) to be carved in *actual* (raised) relief in the photograph.

But, yet once again, it's B.'s text which is being translated, no matter whether it makes sense or not.

Christopher Crockett
Local time: 07:07
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 131
Grading comment
Thank you very very much for the incredible info and discussion!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  philgoddard: I don't see how "creux" (concave) can become "low relief" (convex). I agree it looks that way in the picture, but maybe it's an optical illusion.
4 mins
  -> I'm going on the assumption that "low relief" can mean either "normal" relief (projecting from the ground) or "reverse relief" (projecting *into* the ground plane). Though the latter would, of necessity, have to be quite shallow/"low"
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