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légalité externe

English translation: procedural legality

11:22 Dec 8, 2020
French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general)
French term or phrase: légalité externe
Pleadings in reply to a drug manufacturer annoyed at the registration of a generic medicine and having gone all litigious. The décisions here are the decisions by the ANSM (French safety of health products agency) to accept these marketing authorisations (i.e. to allow marketing of the generics).

The excerpts below are from the answering pleadings of the generics manufacturer.

MISE EN GARDE :
YES! I too assumed interne here meant "domestic (law/legality)"... and presumably that externe in légalité externe logically therefore referred to EU law/legality (see second excerpt below for some talk of EU law).

It appears, however, that légalité externe/ légalité interne are in fact terms which are quite specific to French administrative law. I've tried to get to the bottom of it... but a lot of the search results all seem to be documents behind annoying French legal paywalls! So sad: French jurists are clearly not paid enough from their day jobs, poor lambs. However, from the summary that you see if you google "légalité interne et externe", we see this explanation:

"Par légalité externe, il faut entendre les règles liées à l'élaboration de l'acte administratif. La légalité interne concerne quant à elle les règles qui s'appliquent au contenu de l'acte."

NB I'm not sure that the actual words below (rebutting the plaintiff's grounds) will in fact help much with the elucidation of these terms. It may well be that such terms have absolutely no equivalent in Anglo-Saxon style law systems. I am slightly gobsmacked to find no entry at all for either in Bridge (or for that matter in these archives), but there you go.

"Sur la légalité externe des décisions attaquées
Par un premier moyen, il est allégué que les décisions d’autorisation de mise sur le marché du 20 mai 2018 encourent l’annulation du seul fait qu’elles n’auraient été notifiées au titulaire de la spécialité de référence que le 7 juillet 2018 – la requérante soutenant que le non-respect du délai d’un mois prévu par l’article R.5121-5 du code de la santé publique lui aurait porté préjudice en l’empêchant de « faire valoir utilement ses arguments, avant que le titulaire de la spécialité générique n’ait finalisé ses démarches de négociation de prix avec le Comité économique des produits de santé ».
(1) Le moyen manque en fait.
..."
...

"Sur la légalité interne des décisions attaquées
Par un premier moyen, il est allégué que l’ANSM a commis une erreur de droit en octroyant, selon la procédure dite « hybride » prévue aux articles R.5121-28 2° du code de santé publique et 10 §3 de la directive du 6 novembre 2001, les autorisations de mise sur le marché aux spécialités XXX identifiées comme génériques des spécialités YYY, alors que cette procédure serait inapplicable aux spécialités génériques.
La requérante fait grief à l’agence :
- tantôt d’avoir appliqué la procédure hybride à une spécialité dont l’identification générique était demandée, de sorte que la décision d’AMM serait entachée d’erreur de droit ;
- tantôt d’avoir identifié la spécialité comme générique, alors que la procédure d’AMM hybride suivie aurait dû y faire obstacle – de sorte que c’est la décision d’identification qui serait entachée d’erreur de droit.
Les deux branches du moyen, qui entendent remettre en cause l’interprétation constante par l’ANSM de ces dispositions, reposent sur une même erreur de droit : ni le droit de l’Union européenne (1), ni le droit interne (2) ne font obstacle à ce qu’une AMM soit accordée via une procédure dite « hybride » pour une spécialité dont est demandée l’identification comme générique d’une spécialité de référence.
..."
Mpoma
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:27
English translation:procedural legality
Explanation:
...as opposed to substantive legality.

Procedural legality: Was the document drafted and witnessed as the law requires? For instance, an easement on real property isn't valid unless it is properly drawn up, notarized, etc.

Or was the government decision properly made, by someone legally authorized to make it, in the time period when it had to be made, etc.? For instance, in the US, a recent decision about an immigration amnesty program was invalidated because the court found that the government official who made it had been improperly appointed, so he didn't have the legal authority to make the decision: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/federal-judge-r...

Substantive legality: Are the provisions or contents of the document legal provisions to have? For instance, an easement that forbids the owner from building a fence may be legal, but an easement that forbids the owner from selling the property to Muslims would not be. Even if it had been properly drawn up, notarized, etc.--even if, procedurally, it were perfect--it would still be illegal in substance, i.e., substantively.

Or was the government's decision substantively legal? Any time that the US Supreme Court invalidates a law for being unconstitutional, this is what they're saying: that the US Constitution forbids Congress from ever making a law that does XYZ, even if they pass it using totally appropriate procedures.
Selected response from:

Eliza Hall
United States
Local time: 17:27
Grading comment
Thanks. I'm never able to follow Adrian MM's learned disquisitions, but judging a) from the distinction I quoted from my Search, and b) from the two examples (of "interne" and "externe") from my ST, yes, it seems a fairly straightforward thing really. Doh!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +3extrinsic legalilty
Adrian MM.
4 -2procedural legality
Eliza Hall
3 -1external legality
Lisa Rosengard
Summary of reference entries provided
Sources FR
Nikki Scott-Despaigne

Discussion entries: 8





  

Answers


45 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
extrinsic legalilty


Explanation:
Whilst or though - note the conjunctions - extrinsic and intrinsic are normally associated in Anglo-Am law with materials like English language dictionaries and evidence, namely parol ev. given orally cf. the spelling of release on parole, is usable to prove the terms of a Will made, I see no reason why the terms of intrinsic and extrinsic cannot be used in an admin. law setting. Compare extrinsic / collateral / fraud in US Am. Fed. Law. : 'fraud that prevents a party knowing about his rights or defenses' or due process: Barron's US law dictionary.

Having studied public law - previously called UK constutional and administrative law - I can't recall the IATE translations - rather Socialist Legaility for the Rule of Law. Otherwise, the adjectives cannot be ruled out of the set textbooks of De Smith or Wade + Phillips. I just can't remember any more....

Particularly relevant to ProZ is the comment in the late Professor Wade's preface to UK Const. + Admin Law. : *all debate may be misguided...*

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Note added at 48 minutes (2020-12-08 12:10:30 GMT)
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previously called UK *constitutional* and administrative law....

Example sentence(s):
  • IATE: fr légalité externe COM en external legality COM formal legality
  • IATE: fr légalité interne COM en internal legality COM substantive legality

    Reference: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Intrinsic+and+...
    Reference: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/UNSWLJ/2018/16.html
Adrian MM.
Austria
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 359
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks, you and Allegro seem to have reached the same conclusion. Great legal minds think alike, etc.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  AllegroTrans: Having made ref. to "extrinsic" in my comment, I was hovering on this as an answer but you got there first. Maybe best to retain the French term (which seems to be a "fixture" in their system) and to give "extrinsic legality" as an explanation in bracket
22 mins
  -> Thanks, Chris.
agree  philgoddard: I'm agreeing with your translation, not your explanation, which reaches new heights of incomprehensibility. "Namely parol ev. given orally cf. the spelling of release on parole, is usable to prove the terms of a Will made"?
2 hrs
  -> Thanks. I - and others - usually get wrong the spelling distinction of parol as in contract vs. parole as released on licenc/se
agree  Daryo: The legal vacuum surrounding Street Art may be filled by distinguishing between intrinsic and extrinsic legality: ...https://nysba.org/street-art-is-copyright-for-losers-a-compa...
8 hrs
  -> Thanks and merci.
disagree  Bokani Hart: Too much of a stretch for me
20 hrs
  -> very well debated and argued...
agree  Nikki Scott-Despaigne: I agree with the procedural/substantive distinction.
1 day 12 mins
  -> Thanks, Nikki - only thing is IATE / the EU distinguishes between external : formal and internal : substantive legality.
disagree  Eliza Hall: That's not what extrinsic/intrinsic mean in the law. We don't use those terms to describe government actions. https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Intrinsic and...
1 day 5 hrs
  -> yawn - 1. this is not about a governmental action 2. as highlighted by your own irrelevant ref. and 3. 'we' is not the asker in the UK
agree  ph-b (X): To counteract Eliza Hall's "disagree". Her reference is about "extrinsic evidence", which is not what is being discussed here. Don't know whether she is right or wrong to disagree here, but her reference is irrelevant.
2 days 1 hr
  -> Merci, ph-b. Her reference in fact mistakenly reycles mine, albeit posted to show use of extrinsic in a different context,
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1 day 5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -2
procedural legality


Explanation:
...as opposed to substantive legality.

Procedural legality: Was the document drafted and witnessed as the law requires? For instance, an easement on real property isn't valid unless it is properly drawn up, notarized, etc.

Or was the government decision properly made, by someone legally authorized to make it, in the time period when it had to be made, etc.? For instance, in the US, a recent decision about an immigration amnesty program was invalidated because the court found that the government official who made it had been improperly appointed, so he didn't have the legal authority to make the decision: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/federal-judge-r...

Substantive legality: Are the provisions or contents of the document legal provisions to have? For instance, an easement that forbids the owner from building a fence may be legal, but an easement that forbids the owner from selling the property to Muslims would not be. Even if it had been properly drawn up, notarized, etc.--even if, procedurally, it were perfect--it would still be illegal in substance, i.e., substantively.

Or was the government's decision substantively legal? Any time that the US Supreme Court invalidates a law for being unconstitutional, this is what they're saying: that the US Constitution forbids Congress from ever making a law that does XYZ, even if they pass it using totally appropriate procedures.

Eliza Hall
United States
Local time: 17:27
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 145
Grading comment
Thanks. I'm never able to follow Adrian MM's learned disquisitions, but judging a) from the distinction I quoted from my Search, and b) from the two examples (of "interne" and "externe") from my ST, yes, it seems a fairly straightforward thing really. Doh!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Lisa Rosengard: I believe that procedural legality is not the same as external or extrinsic law / legality. It determines the rights of parties, while substantive law determines the rights of individuals and collective bodies, which might be extrinsic / external.
2 hrs
  -> I'm sorry, Lisa, that answer is incorrect. Procedural law does not determine the rights of parties. Your odd distinction between parties and "individuals or collective bodies" is also not correct.
disagree  Adrian MM.: You've misled the asker yet again. This answer is a mix-up with the term of art of procedural law, besides which procedural is only one aspect: it's also jurisdictional and formal 'Légalité externe: règles de *compétence, de forme et de procédure* ...'
1 day 16 hrs
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17 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -1
external legality


Explanation:
From the information provided,
"By external law or legality, it's necessary to understand the rules attached to the extension (or elaboration) of an administrative act or deed.
The internal law or legality is concerned with the rules applied to the content of the act or deed within."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2020-12-08 12:48:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

https://www.etudier.com/dissertations/l’Acte-Administratif-U...

"En examinant la légalité externe d'un acte administratif, le juge examine la compétence de l'auteur de l'acte, la procédure ainsi que le respect des règles en forme."

"By examining the external law or legality of an administrative act (deed), the judge examines the competence shown by the author of the act (or deed), the procedure, along with the respect for the formulated rules or laws."

(Something extrinsic is not forming an essential or inherent part of a thing. It's extraneous, that is, it originates from the outside, and it's external.)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 5 hrs (2020-12-09 16:45:03 GMT)
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https://www.linguee.com/english-french/search?query=la compé...

Here's an example of the 'competence of the author of the act' in connection with its substance.

"Ce n'ést pas distingué entre la question de la recevabilité (la nature de l'acte) et le fond (la compétence de l'auteur de l'acte'."

"It's not distinguished between the question of the admissibility (the nature of the act) and substance (competence of the author of the act)."



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 6 hrs (2020-12-09 17:24:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

" - those which relate to what one calls the 'external legality' of the provisions in dispute, that's to say, the power of the community authorities to issue them and the correctness of the procedure by which they were adopted.
- those which relate to the 'internal legality' of those provisions in respect of which the essence of the complaint is the violation of the so-called principle of proportionality which is alleged to bind the Community authorities."

" - Ceux qui se rapportent à ce qu'on appelle la légalité externe des provisions en dispute; c'est à dire le pouvoir des autorités d'une communauté pour les délivrer (ou pour les fournir), et la justice (la régularité et l'exactitude) de la procédure par laquelle elles ont été adoptées.
- Ceux qui se rapportent à ce qu'on appelle la légalité interne des provisions, par respect de quoi l'essence de la plainte est la violation d'un principe (comme ci connu) de la proportionnalité qui est présumée de relier (ou de contraindre) les autorités de la communauté."

(from the web link: www.curia.europa.eu/juris)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 6 hrs (2020-12-09 18:09:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

De l'information mise sur la légalité externe est des décisions d'autorisation d'une mise sur le marché:
'Il traite d'un délai d'un moi en des démarches (des procédures) de négotiation de prix des produits de santé,
L'information sur la légalité interne est sur des décisions attaquées pour empêcher des démarches (faire obstacle aux procédures) de sorte que c'est la décision d'identification que serait entachée d'erreur de droit.
Les deux branches du moyen sont des dispositions d'une organizaton titulée ANSM.
Le droit externe est de l'Union Européenne. Le droit interne est d'une localité. Ni l'une ni l'autre veut faire obstacle d'une procédure dont l'identification est demandée comme générique.'

(The external law is from the European Union while the internal law is from a locality. Procedures concerning the price of health care were delayed because of obstacles and impediments placed by an organization. Neither the law from the European Union or from any locality wish to present obstacles while they have found errors in the legal justice system.)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days 7 hrs (2020-12-11 19:15:52 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

'La loi substantielle (la loi matérielle ou le droit substantiel) se réfère à l'ensemble des règles qui déterminent les droits et les obligations des individus et des organisations collectives.
Le droit procédural (la loi des procédures) est l'organisation des règles légales qui gouvernent le procès de la détermination des partis impliqués (le processus de détermination des droits des partis).'

("Substantive law refers to the body of rules that determine the rights and obligations of individuals and collective groups or organizations. Procedural law is the organization of legal rules which govern the process for determining the rights of parties.")


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 days (2020-12-14 15:53:48 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

"La proportionnalité fait des relations avec des autres partis ou des quantités. C'est un accord harmonieux ou des relations parmi des partis ou des éléments sont aux ratios ou status (peut-être envers l'égalité)."

("Proportionality is relative to other parties or quantities. It's a harmonious accord in which relationships among parties or elements are by ratio or status (perhaps towards equality).")

Example sentence(s):
  • "Par légalité externe, il faut entendre les règles liées à l'élaboration de l'acte administratif. La légalité interne concerne quant à elle les règles qui s'appliquent au contenu de l'acte."
Lisa Rosengard
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:27
Native speaker of: English

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  AllegroTrans: It's easy to do a word-for-word translation, but what evidence do you have that your term is used and/or would be understood for what it is? Please explain your reasoning
17 mins
agree  Bokani Hart: http://curia.europa.eu/juris/showPdf.jsf?text=&docid=87990&p...
20 hrs
disagree  Daryo: your explanations / proposed sample translations are not helping "la compétence de l'auteur de l'acte" is not about "the competence shown by the author of the act" - it's NOT that kind of " compétence" .
22 hrs
disagree  Eliza Hall: What AllegroTrans and Daryo said.
1 day 5 hrs
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Reference comments


1 day 45 mins
Reference: Sources FR

Reference information:
https://www.conseil-etat.fr/Glossaire

Légalité externe
règles de compétence, de forme et de procédure que doit respecter une décision administrative pour être légale.
Légalité interne
conditions de fond que doit respecter une décision administrative pour être légale.


https://www.doc-du-juriste.com/droit-public-et-international...

« Correspondant à deux causes juridiques distinctes, les moyens de légalité externe concernent les règles applicables à l’élaboration des actes administratifs alors que les moyens de légalité interne concernent les règles applicables au contenu de l’acte ».


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 55 mins (2020-12-09 12:17:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Légalité externe" concerns, inter alia, matters of procedural law; "légalité interne" concerns matters relating to substantive law.

Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 451
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