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un turque d'outretombe

English translation: a(n arcane) Turkish patois

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:un turque d'outretombe
English translation:a(n arcane) Turkish patois
Entered by: Yvonne Gallagher

13:06 May 23, 2020
French to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature
French term or phrase: un turque d'outretombe
Extrait du livre:


"C’est qu’alors qu’une petite fille, qui devait avoir entre trois et quatre ans, reçut l’ordre (en un turque d’outre-tombe) de me guider vers un tas de détritus qui gisait non loin de là"


This is about Turkish-speaking "Roms", whose language is therefore tortuous and distorted by centuries of various migrations. The expression "Un turque d'outre-tombe", here, means here "an abstruse Turkish language". I do have a few translation ideas, but not being native, I just beg your advice.
Hugues Roumier
France
Local time: 04:25
a Turkish patois
Explanation:
I think archaic and outdated imply that it is no longer spoken, or is obsolete whereas this obviously isn't. It's a form of non-standard language like a Creole (which doesn't fit here however). I've been mulling this over and have finally managed to think of the proper word to describe this.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/patois

the form of a language spoken by people in a particular area that is different from the standard language of the country:
the local patois

https://www.lexico.com/definition/patois
The dialect of a particular region, especially one with low status in relation to the standard language of the country.

‘the nurse talked to me in a patois that even Italians would have had difficulty in understanding’
1.1 The jargon or informal speech used by a particular social group.
examples ‘the raunchy patois of inner-city kids’

‘We have 1984 today; even if not in the form described by Orwell; since newspeak is replaced by the patois of the gang leaders and international body smugglers.’

‘To emulate (in the specific patois of archivists) is to re-create a work that uses a defunct technology by essentially re-copying it into a current technology.’

Origin
Mid 17th century French, literally ‘rough speech’, perhaps from Old French patoier ‘treat roughly’, from patte ‘paw’.



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Note added at 1 day 22 hrs (2020-05-25 11:55:43 GMT)
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You could also add "arcane" or "abstruse" to emphasise its rarity or obscurity

[she spoke in] an arcane/abstruse Turkish patois

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 23 hrs (2020-05-26 12:41:00 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Glad to have helped (and that I finally managed to remember the right word for this!)
Selected response from:

Yvonne Gallagher
Ireland
Local time: 03:25
Grading comment
Thank you Yvonne for your answer. It was quite useful for me
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +5a wacky / archaic / outlandish Turkish
Katarina Peters
4 +2outdated/obsolete Turkish
Francois Boye
4 +1Turkish from another century
Nicole Acher
4 +1a Turkish patois
Yvonne Gallagher
4bastardized Turkish
Saro Nova
3Turkish of another world
Barbara Cochran, MFA
3an outdated or outlandish Turkish
Lisa Rosengard
3a Turk from beyond the grave
Anais Devenish


Discussion entries: 2





  

Answers


40 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +5
a wacky / archaic / outlandish Turkish


Explanation:
a few suggestions

Katarina Peters
Canada
Local time: 22:25
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in HungarianHungarian, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 14

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  philgoddard: I think wacky is too colloquial, and outlandish too denigratory. But archaic works.
9 mins
  -> OK, thanks, Phil
agree  James A. Walsh: Yeah I like archaic too - works well here!
3 hrs
  -> Thanks James
agree  Carol Gullidge: archaic
5 hrs
  -> Thanks Carol
agree  ormiston: Archaic
19 hrs
  -> Thanks ormiston
agree  Marian Vieyra: Archaic
21 hrs
  -> Thanks Marian
neutral  Yvonne Gallagher: I completely disagree with "outlandish" and "wacky" and am not so sure about "archaic" either
23 hrs
  -> Thank you Yvonne
neutral  Saro Nova: outlandish sounds not right. See my suggestion for BASTARDIZED TURKISH, with sample sentence and reference. I realize it doesn't translate OUTRE-TOMBE exactly, but I think it's easily approximated by adding "archaic" or other suggestions herein before it.
1 day 19 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
Turkish of another world


Explanation:
"outretombe" somethmes means "otherworldly"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2020-05-23 14:31:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Of another world in time.

Barbara Cochran, MFA
United States
Local time: 22:25
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 16
Notes to answerer
Asker: is "Otherworldly Turkish" also correct ?

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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
outdated/obsolete Turkish


Explanation:
in a language that is no longer spoken

Francois Boye
United States
Local time: 22:25
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Carol Gullidge: this is how I see it!
4 hrs
  -> Tanks!
agree  Marian Vieyra: Obsolete would be my choice.
19 hrs
  -> Thanks!
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
Turkish from another century


Explanation:
another way to express it

Nicole Acher
United States
Local time: 22:25
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in FrenchFrench

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Ben Gaia
10 days
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20 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
an outdated or outlandish Turkish


Explanation:
'd'outretombe' could mean from another tomb
I agree it means outdated or outlandish.

Example sentence(s):
  • Une petite fille, qui devait avoir entre trois ou quatre ans, reçut l'ordre (en un turque d'outretombe) de me guider vers un tas de détritus qui gisait non loin de là.
  • A small girl of three or four years old received the order (in an outlandish or outdated Turkish) to guide me towards a pile of debris (litter) which was laid not far from there.
Lisa Rosengard
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:25
Native speaker of: English
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1 day 19 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
bastardized Turkish


Explanation:
I don't know but "outlandish" just doesn't do it for me. A language that is made up of many influences and misused is called bastardized, as in a bastardized tongue. Thought this might be a more fitting alternative.

Example sentence(s):
  • ...Armenian nationalism had moved the Kurds to ally with the Turkish- ... a dialect of bastardized Turkish, which had evolved while these individuals had ...

    https://books.google.com.cy/books?id=thrAYUyUD4wC&pg=PT35&lpg=PT35&dq=bastardized+turkish&source=bl&ots=MYX86HSg8R&sig=ACfU3U206gfz-SuQvY0IV
    https://www.google.com/search?q=bastardized+latin&oq=bastardized+l&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0l6.6437j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Saro Nova
Canada
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
Notes to answerer
Asker: Is it pejorative in English? In french, it is.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Yvonne Gallagher: far too pejorative
2 hrs
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1 day 22 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
a Turkish patois


Explanation:
I think archaic and outdated imply that it is no longer spoken, or is obsolete whereas this obviously isn't. It's a form of non-standard language like a Creole (which doesn't fit here however). I've been mulling this over and have finally managed to think of the proper word to describe this.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/patois

the form of a language spoken by people in a particular area that is different from the standard language of the country:
the local patois

https://www.lexico.com/definition/patois
The dialect of a particular region, especially one with low status in relation to the standard language of the country.

‘the nurse talked to me in a patois that even Italians would have had difficulty in understanding’
1.1 The jargon or informal speech used by a particular social group.
examples ‘the raunchy patois of inner-city kids’

‘We have 1984 today; even if not in the form described by Orwell; since newspeak is replaced by the patois of the gang leaders and international body smugglers.’

‘To emulate (in the specific patois of archivists) is to re-create a work that uses a defunct technology by essentially re-copying it into a current technology.’

Origin
Mid 17th century French, literally ‘rough speech’, perhaps from Old French patoier ‘treat roughly’, from patte ‘paw’.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 22 hrs (2020-05-25 11:55:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

You could also add "arcane" or "abstruse" to emphasise its rarity or obscurity

[she spoke in] an arcane/abstruse Turkish patois

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 23 hrs (2020-05-26 12:41:00 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Glad to have helped (and that I finally managed to remember the right word for this!)

Yvonne Gallagher
Ireland
Local time: 03:25
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 40
Grading comment
Thank you Yvonne for your answer. It was quite useful for me

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  philgoddard: Good idea!
2 hrs
  -> Thanks:-)
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3 days 19 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
a Turk from beyond the grave


Explanation:
It may not be referring to the language spoken here, it could be referring to an actual person.
1st idea: A Turk from overseas.
2nd idea: A Turk from beyond the grave (outre-tombe).
I am leaning toward the 'beyond the grave' it is more other worldly, literary and poetic.

Anais Devenish
Australia
Local time: 10:25
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 3
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