(wegen) geringerer polizeilicher Rente

English translation: state pension

03:34 Mar 10, 2007

German to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Genealogy

German term or phrase: (wegen) geringerer polizeilicher Rente

An 1866 Leumundszeugnis states that a journeyman mason in Deggendorf (Bavaria) "in den Jahren 1852 und 1858 wegen ••geringerer polizeilicher Rente•• mit 12 Stund und beziehungsweise 2 Tag Arrest bestraft wurde."

What, exactly, was his offense? Did he twice fall short in some payment owed the police? I am aware of various meanings for "Rente, including those in the 1888 Heath's and 1902 Muret-Sanders. But can anyone shed light on this in the police context?

Ann C Sherwin KudoZ activity Questions: 72 (none open) (3 closed without grading) Answers: 139
Local time: 09:46

English translation:state pension

Explanation:
is my guess, based on the entry for Polizei in the 1908 Hermann Paul dictionary=
"die Staatsverwaltung überhapt"

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Note added at 5 hrs (2007-03-10 08:58:41 GMT)
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Grimm =
"1) vom 15. bis ins 17. jahrh. verstand man unter polizei die regierung, verwaltung und ordnung, besonders eine art sittenaufsicht in staat und gemeinde und die darauf bezüglichen verordnungen und maszregeln (vgl. MEDICUS im deutschen staatswörterb. 8, 128. STEIN verwaltungslehre 95), auch den staat selbst, sowie die staatskunst, politik (des Machiavelli policei. SCHM.2 1, 386 vom jahre 1694). "

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Note added at 5 hrs (2007-03-10 09:05:44 GMT)
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so the meaning here predates "cops" as it were, back to its original meaning, which according to the Grimm dictionary is "policy"

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Note added at 1 day5 hrs (2007-03-11 08:37:08 GMT)
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according to the 1905 Muret-Sanders, Rente also denotes "debt", so perhaps he was not able to fullly reimburse his "debt policy"??

Selected response from:

Jonathan MacKerron

Grading comment

Though I must reject "state pension" (with apologies for giving too little background up front), I thank you for pointing out the older, broader definition of "polizeilich," which is really more helpful than knowing the exact meaning of "Rente."
3 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided

state pension

Jonathan MacKerron

Discussion entries: 9

Ann C Sherwin

ASKER

17:33 Mar 11, 2007

No typo. The document is handwritten in a very legible German script. The word "polizeilich" appears throughout the records on this person, who is seeking "polizeiliche" permission to marry and establish domicile. I think you are right that it refers here to the city administration, and we may never know for sure what the "Rente" was. Meanwhile I have queried a local historical society in that district. If I get a conclusive reply, I will add it here. Many thanks to all who have entered the discussion.

Jonathan MacKerron

09:42 Mar 11, 2007

Anne, is there any possibility here of a typo??

Bernhard Sulzer

United States

18:45 Mar 10, 2007

that info helps. back to the thinking board.

Ann C Sherwin

ASKER

More info

17:56 Mar 10, 2007

This is one of 25 pages of records on this guy, and there is no indication he received a pension. He was 15 years old at the time of his first offense and 21 at the second (1858 – the same year he completed his apprenticeship and became a journeyman). If he was on welfare, there is no indication of that. He is presented as a competent mason earning a fair wage. So the Rente is probably not money received from but money paid to the city. I'm sure we're on the right track in assuming imprisonment for debt. I just wish I could tell my client exactly what her ancester was indebted for – rent, interest, a fee for some service, or something else.

Bernhard Sulzer

United States

15:26 Mar 10, 2007

mean to say: he received such a small state pension, instead of paying the fee, he had to go to jail.

Bernhard Sulzer

United States

15:24 Mar 10, 2007

Thank you for you feedback, Ann. With Jonathan's explanation I would interpret it just as Brigitte did.

Ann C Sherwin

ASKER

Clarification

13:09 Mar 10, 2007

Hi Bernhard. What I should have said is that the old dictionaries give essentially the same meanings of Rente found in modern dictionaries: revenue, income, rent, interest, pension. But the broader meaning of polizeilich that Jonathan provided adds a dimension I hadn't thought of.

BrigitteHilgner

Austria

08:29 Mar 10, 2007

I don't know but I get the impression that the man was earning so little/had no money and therefore was unable to pay a fee - so he had to go to prison.

Bernhard Sulzer

United States

05:22 Mar 10, 2007

Hello Ann. It might help if you could state the additional meanings of "Rente" you are alluding to (1888 Heath's etc.) Thank you.

Answers

5 hrs confidence:

state pension

Jonathan MacKerron
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 6

Grading comment

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