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The asker opted for community grading. The question was closed on 2017-05-13 14:54:07 based on peer agreement (or, if there were too few peer comments, asker preference.)
German to English translations [PRO] Art/Literary - Printing & Publishing / Book section - Impressum
German term or phrase:Impressum
Hi all, my question is:
is there an actual name/term, in English, for the page detailing the publishing and reference information of a book?
Usually the second or third page, it contains the copyright and rights reserved, original print years, publisher's legal notices, catalogue and ISBN information.
This description I found online, describes it without naming it, second part, "back of page", see below.
Thank you in advance, Sebastian
_____
" Title Page:
The book title and the names of the author(s) and the publisher are found here.
-->>> Additional information appears on the back side of this page: the copyright notice, the ISBN (the International Standard Book Number) and printing numbers, the publisher’s address, the year the book was published, and the Library of Congress Catalogue information. "
Explanation: First, I'd like to acknowledge the assistance given by Lancashireman in the discussion box. Without his contributions, I wouldn't have gone back and researched some more.
Agree with you regarding LEO & co. Some discussions are incredibly unprofessional and worse. But I cannot seem to find an uncomplicated way to even find glossary entries on ProZ. Very cumbersome and time consuming. Given all the comments here and in other posts, I must be doing something wrong. Most times, no matter what filters I enter, I get 'no results'. I use online bilingual dictionaries to get ideas that stimulate my own... And yes, the terminology is often clueless (to be kind). I have actually written to some of them correcting so-called correct entries... one that sticks in my memory - aspiration and aspirated! Wishing you and all the others here a good week as well.
Again, thanks to everyone! I am particularly glad that we could add something new to the glossary and not just rehash old content.
Now, if we can just figure out a way to remove two-thirds of the glossary posts on "Impressum" (which really aren't good, IMO, even for websites)...
No seriously, Elli, I'd take everything said, I guess, before 2005 or so with a grain of salt. I merely hope that people at least have a look at the discussion posts or peer comments when searching for a term. I think this is one of the big advantages of ProZ in contrast to LEO & Co. Most discussions over there are not very "enlightening." And don't get me started on bilingual dictionaries where 80K words have seemingly been put together by two Germans.
Thank you once again to every-one, for such a thorough effort and dedication, I didn't dare throw my likely wrench-esque tuppence over the course of the week,
and it's been truly comforting as a rather side-line proz member yet lover of translating, to see the awesomely strong and extensive safety net out there!
Best wishes and regards,
and a happy Mother's day, to all!
The best reward I can offer is a few groovae songs.. here's a nice soft rock playlist! (start at the magic trick/ real estate end please, ordering by Date Added :) http://www.deezer.com/playlist/2934405682
I simply didn't have the time (and probably not the erudition) to keep up with this long conversation/debate. But ultimately the outcome was productive and thanks to Bjorn and Herbalchemist for closing it all so nicely. Now I will have to remember to use the glossary (I still find it incredibly cumbersome to find a term here). Happy weekend... and happy mother's day.
everyone for the fun discussion and Bjoern & Sebastian for updating the glossary to include two terms it previously did not have. I think that they are both helpful for anyone looking for suitable words for "Impressum" in this context. Despite the eye rolling and complaints about this term coming up again, this discussion was worth having, since the context was new in being specific to books and in addressing a larger audience than people working in the legal or publishing industries.
Then we can all have a good laugh and burn some more books, since we're supposed to buy more e-readers anyways :) Have to bow out of the discussion for now, but wish you all a good evening and apologize to whomever has gotten annoyed by all those email notifications about this question (and before I get books thrown at me!).
Im Grunde genommen hast du recht. According to http://www.typolexikon.de/titelei/, there is the option of leaving the page blank designated "Impressum". However, Sebastian asked for the page with specific content. If I turned to the Impressum and it was blank...
@herbalchemist "there are more names for the page other than" What other names? Did I overlook something? There's only one "Bezeichnung" for page 4 and that is "Impressum." The other words are for "möglicher Inhalt." I think the point is that the German isn't all that clear (cf. my reply to Thomas below)
@Thomas Hallo Thomas, nein müssen wir nicht. Ich glaube schlicht, dass hier zwei zusammenhängende Bedeutungen hineinspielen. Das Impressum (wie auf einer Webseite) und das Impressum im Buchdruck, was wie unten gezeigt, die Seite selbst darstellt. Auf dieser findet sich natürlich auch das Copyright, wenn vorhanden, weshalb ich sagte, ich würde beide Vorschläge akzeptieren. Nur ein kurzes Beispiel: https://books.google.de/books?id=stLB85mp3XQC&pg=PA310&dq=im...
Dort wird wie auch woanders beschrieben im Buchdesign (ich rede von nichts anderem!) von Seite 4 als "Impressum" ausgegangen. Wie unten erklärt, war "verso" nicht der Hauptvorschlag; ich hätte "title" am Besten mit reinnehmen sollen (kann es aber nicht ändern).
Du hast recht, Björn, genau das ist es, warum wir aneinander vorbeireden. Ich suche eine Übersetzung für das Impressum, während du einen Namen für das Stück Papier suchst, auf dem das Impressum gedruckt wird.<br><br>Doch jetzt einmal anders herum: Was kommt dabei heraus, wenn man das englische verso ins Deutsche übersetzen möchte? Bestimmt nicht „Impressum“. Oder?<br><br>Nach der ganzen Diskussion komme ich langsam sogar wieder auf das viel gescholtene (printer's) imprint zurück. Aber da ziehe ich mich dann doch lieber ins Wochenende zurück. ;-) <br><br>Eine schönes Wochenende allerseits. (Und nichts für ungut, Björn – man muss nicht immer einer Meinung sein.)
OK, so this is the point Thomas & I were making, before he bailed. In the same reference you gave (http://www.typolexikon.de/titelei/), there are more names for the page other than "Impressum" or "Impressumsseite," but "Verso 4" clearly means "Backside, page 4," since there are other "Rechto" and "Verso." I wondered about "Impressum" referring to a page also, but in the same graphic you cited, they call the page "Impressum" and the dictionary put together by TU Chemnitz also refers to a page when in the context of a book (http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/dings.cgi?service=deen&opterrors=... If you back-translate in their dictionary "verso," it gives the definition "Rückseite {f} eines Buchblattes."
After consulting my German source, whose relation to me I wish to keep private, and the sources that you gave, I admit that "Impressum" and "copyright" are orthogonal concepts and that I had misunderstood our brief exchange. The "Impressum" is information for the reader to be aware that the author is liable for misleading information, etc. (I'm not a law expert). Nevertheless, as I was saying before, which you should not have read offense into, I stand by my arguments for "copyright page" and against "verso." Unfortunately, we don't have more interested readers and opinions.
"since it does not correspond to a page" The thing is: I have the distinct feeling Thomas and I are talking past each other. I think he's talking about the "Impressum" as a section on a page.
However, the question as posed was: "is there an actual name/term, in English, for the page detailing the publishing and reference information of a book"
Correspondingly, the term asked should have been "Impressumsseite," I guess, although it's not necessary, as you can see below.
Here, "Impressum" is defined as a page, namely the title-verso one (again). See what they did there to describe page 4? "4 Verso Impressum Druckvermerk / Leerseite"
Called "Impressum" whether blank or not.
Similarly, from Wiki: "Die präziseren Angaben zum Druck finden sich heute meist auf der Rückseite des Titelblatts, auf Seite 4 des Buchblocks. Das Impressum ist Teil der Titelei und ist auf der Impressumsseite zu finden." https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressum
I cannot find any "lower" common denominator. Yes, I could've added "title" to the answer; didn't want to clutter up the field, as I gave 3 options.
I want to clarify that I was indeed questioning the suggestion of "verso" being the translation of "Impressum" so far as it refers to the page in a book. I would like more people to vote or suggest answers, since I am truly interested in generating the best answer. I also disagree with "imprint," since it does not correspond to a page, and it was wrong of me to not even address it. As a philosophical argument (different from a word-fight) against "verso," if one looks for a definition, one will have difficulty finding a definition that refers to a specific page in a book (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/verso). Furthermore, a common usage of "verso" is the reverse side (tails) of a coin. "Title verso," while more clear, and indeed used in the industry, doesn't seem specific enough, since the location of the imprint can vary. Moreover, one can use the phrase "title verso," in all correctness, to refer to 1) the backside of the title page containing publishing info and 2) the backside of the title page, even if it's blank. I am not sure that it *should* be applied to 3) the general page on which publishing info is printed, which is what I thought we were discussing.
Based on German Gründlichkeit, the only option available to Thomas would have been “imprint page,” since every book needs to show a publisher’s imprint (unless you don't include it in self-publishing), but may have a blank title-verso page or no copyright notice. This is where I don’t understand Thomas at all, frankly.
In light of the fact that the links I posted view all three options as interchangeable, and further considering that a) the usual (but not exclusive) position of publication details is on the title-verso page and b) the term is going to understood by people in the industry as the page on which you’ll find the publisher’s imprint, the ISBN number, etc., I don’t see any issues of "aptness” or “reliability” cropping up.
Even if you violated copyright, it’s unusual to receive anything other than a fine. You’d have to do it “gewerbsmäßig” and the relevant section reads: “so ist die Strafe Freiheitsstrafe bis zu fünf Jahren oder Geldstrafe.“ https://dejure.org/gesetze/UrhG/108a.html
The main point is that “Rechte” und “Pflichten” are at opposite ends of the spectrum, which means you use a term that is in stark contrast to what you intend to describe. Additionally, from a lawyer’s page: https://drschwenke.de/der-copyright-hinweis-seine-bedeutung-...
Despite all of the above, I will not argue against your suggestion because I think it has merit. Yes, there is no fixed position of the copyright notice in print books: https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ03.pdf
However, the same document will tell you that although it’s still recommended to include a copyright notice, this hasn’t been necessary, basically, since the breakup of the Soviet Union...
I'm honestly trying to be non-confrontational, but it's becoming increasingly difficult considering the (in good faith, I believe inadvertently added) trigger words throughout the discussion posts.
First, it was "outdated" as if I were some type of fossil; then, it was "reliable" and "accessible" as if I had just posted links claiming to show Hillary Clinton's emails on Anthony Weiner's perv phone.
I even replied to Elli saying: "Curiously enough, neither herbalchemist's nor my suggestion can be found in the glossary, meaning something new will be added regardless." I thought that to be good sportsmanship.
Considering where the discussion has led us, I should point out, though, that this statement strikes me as very odd: "My German source personally likes the term 'Impressum', since it means that you go to jail if you violate it." Besides your “German source” being wrong, it's a case of conflating issues, namely Impressumspflicht and Urheberrecht. You cannot “violate an Impressum.” That makes little sense. You can only violate the rules stipulating what an Impressum needs to entail. This will typically lead to a fine (“Ordnungsgeld”), not imprisonment.
Thanks for pointing out the bad argument that I used (although it was good rhetoric ;)). I'm very happy to learn something new, and I was not saying that your answer is not "correct" but rather mine is more suitable to the question and context given. However this turns out, the discussion is the most important part. However, I want to further my case by pointing out that my answer of "copyright page" fulfills the requirements of 1) an English translation of a German term, including its connotations, in the context requested, 2) unambiguously, and 3) with out-right stated, reliable, accessible sources. You may argue (1) and (2).
I know what you're trying to get at, but I don't see the relevance. It's not like the two alternatives - copyright page and imprint page - wouldn't need additional clarification.
You know what's all on a "copyright page" (besides the copyright notice!) because it has been specified somewhere. The same is true for title verso. If that's where you'll find the information or the publication details, people in the industry will understand what you're referring to (that's what all these links I posted were for: show how the term is being defined). I am merely answering the question as asked. Otherwise, you would have to use "section" or just say "publication details" or similar, but the asker even mentioned "page" and "book" in his question.
Additionally, in regard to the sentence you quoted: "for" -> "for the inclusion of." Of course, CIP Data and "title verso" aren't synonyms. But that's the page on which the Library of Congress expects CIP data to be found.
Björn, you said: "By the way, even the Library of Congress calls it "title verso" for CIP Data".<br>No, it doesn't. I quote from the link you provided: ""CIP data" is the bibliographic record that appears printed on the verso of the book's title page." So it merely says that the CIP data appears on the verso of the book's title page. And that's what I meant with my comment to your answer below – verso/title verso and all that is the name of the physical page, not the name of what's on that page. Even a blank verso is still a verso.
I don't really have much time for such thorough discussions, but was curious nonetheless... found this https://lts.library.cornell.edu/lts/rt/ref/ptsbk and the Oxford reference, and although I generally don't trust Wikipedia, this is their take:
The title page is one of the most important parts of the "front matter" or "preliminaries" of a book, as the data on it and its verso (together known as the "title leaf") are used to establish the "title proper and usually, though not necessarily, the statement of responsibility and the data relating to publication".
I didn't argue against your suggestion. My answer was in reference to where the asker lives and it's not the States.
However: "But enough about me, the term 'verso' is probably more outdated than the language that it came from, since books are not read on paper anymore"
Yes, we are living in an increasingly digitized world. That doesn't mean print books will disappear. Similarly, vinyl records did neither, as they've retained some of their advantages over CDs and online music stores.
Thanks for the interesting submission from B.V., strongly substantiated by L.man. I strangely didn't even notice the "verso" in the reference that *I* gave and must have read it as "reverse," since I have some Latin training and am generally rather jumbled up. I want to say that, in general, Americans will not know that this means. I took several courses in English and Philosophy with British instructors and never encountered this word. But enough about me, the term 'verso' is probably more outdated than the language that it came from, since books are not read on paper anymore, thus there is no 'verso'. My German source personally likes the term 'Impressum', since it means that you go to jail if you violate it (he doesn't mince words). The same goes, or should go, for violating copyright. After all, if you were to write a book today, this would be the most important page, or at least more so than the title page.
Any objections to title verso page or title page verso?
"In modern books, this contains the location of the publisher’s name and address, copyright notice and date, ISBN, any cataloguing-in-publication information, the printer’s name and address—information related to both the imprint and colophon in older books." http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.201...
Cambridge is the only one not listing the meaning I was talking about.
Yours is in Oxford too. The full entry: "A printer's or publisher's name, address, and other details in a book or other publication. Example sentences 2.1 A brand name under which books are published, typically the name of a former publishing house that is now part of a larger group."
Macmillan only includes the one I posted: "the name and address of a publisher, printed at the beginning of a book"
Harper Collins UK accepts three options: "Title verso Page in the prelims backing the title page (often the fourth page) on which the copyright notice, publisher and imprint details, the ISBN and impression number, and other details about the publication of the book appear. Also called the copyright page or imprint page."
Brunel University in London: "Imprint page - the page at the front of a book listing the ISBN, date of publication, publisher and copyright holder"
Cf. ABA and this: "The ISBN should appear on the reverse of the title page, sometimes called the copyright page or the imprint page and on the outside back cover of the book." http://studentlibrary.southwales.ac.uk/staff/isbns
Asker's description: "It contains the 1) copyright and 2) rights reserved, 3) original print years, 4) publisher's legal notices, 5) catalogue and 6) ISBN information"
"Unlike the title of the book the imprint – most often printed at the foot of the title-page – giving the place of publication, the name of the printer and or publisher, and the date of printing need not be transcribed verbatim. [...] For books in English the imprint may be in the form ‘Printed by [printer] for [publisher]’" http://www.aba.org.uk/Book-Collecting/Articles-on-Book-Colle...
Regarding books - and only books (!) - I see little wrong with "imprint" (at least, in the UK) to describe this section.
Yes, that's wrong and it's very hard to persuade non-ENS not to use it. However, a "disclaimer" is about use limitations, links, etc. This is not what the Impressum entails and at least in Germany, many disclaimers are either ineffective or dangerous. Quite frankly, I have always believed that this is something that legal departments or lawyers should add to websites, not translators.
I can recommend the blog by a ProZ contributor, Margaret Marks. I may not agree with all of her points, but it's definitely a useful site.
IIRC, until the UK "brexits," it will continue to have an "Impressum" requirement as part of EU regulations (although not named as such on websites) and the only translation acceptable to German courts is "Contact." This makes sense if you consider what the purpose of a website Impressum is supposed to be - to get in touch with someone (e.g., you can't post a phone number making it hard to get a hold of the website operator). I'd be cautious: Just because your website is in English doesn't mean you're automatically off the hook regarding easy-to-find contact details.
I know that a masthead for magazines, papers, etc. I do enough work for such publications (a book is not generally referred to as a publication) I thought I specified that. I only mentioned web pages because of the general confusion... I have seen'imprint in website translations.
No worries. I was writing and searching for links when you posted your next comment, so I added the last paragraph before submitting mine. I've edited the Wiki link, as it pointed to the wrong section of the page. The example is further up.
Side note: Most of the glossary info about "Impressum" on websites is either wrong or misleading, IMO. There are one or two well-written entries, but this is the trouble with old KudoZ entries. No one ever "dusts off" the glossary; things are merely added, so that eventually, it will turn into another online database like LEO - or its counterpart for "professionals."
Phil: See above - we haven't had it "28 times." In fact, less than a handful of KudoZ links refer to books and answerers don't seem to agree there. As far as I understand it, the asker needs to describe the page, not put the word above the publication details. But Sebastian can tell me whether I misunderstood him. You are correct, of course, that if this is about the word having been put on a book page (not necessarily at the top of it!), you omit it. But you may be interested to know that, with one exception, none of my German books show "Impressum" anywhere. The word does not seem to be all that common in print; websites are treated differently.
Elli: AFAIK, a masthead is for periodicals and newspapers, not books. And the asker did not want to know about web pages.
Best
@Sebastian Wiki has a really good explanation, I thought. And: The first example on the German page is from a book written in English. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressum
Great stuff all, thank you for the help Herbal, Phil, Elli, Brigitte, Zuzana, all useful, interesting and productive pointers, and my apologies for the curt research, only did a proz search of terms, not knowing what to actually search for through EN on wikipedia.
So it would seem that the names we have collected would only be used verbally, and that in practice the printed page never has a title at all,
though if really pushed it would be simply either Impressum or Edition Notice ...if naming it were necessary for some reason. xD
Absolutely agree. Even the online dictionaries use the term. I don't know how many times I have amended this in translations I revise. In print publications it is generally referred to as the masthead, but not entitled as such. On the web, however, it is often entitled "Disclaimer". It is then followed by all kinds of legal information.
We've had this 28 times before, so I'm not going to get involved in discussing it yet again. But if this is the word at the top of the page, "imprint" is wrong. You will only ever see it in translations from German, never in an English publication. In English, we simply provide the credits and other information without a heading.
peer agreement (net): +1
