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Taufzeugen / Taufpaten

English translation: witnesses/sponsors (godparents)

21:07 Aug 5, 2013
German to English translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - Religion
German term or phrase: Taufzeugen / Taufpaten
Ev. Lutheran church records in Texas (USA), dating around 1911, contain an account of a dispute between pastor and congregation. First, the congregation issued a list of "Vorschläge" for the Pastor, including:

"Taufzeugen anderen Denominationen soll der Pastor wegen Härtigkeit nicht zurückweisen, um womöglich Spaltung zu verhüten in der Gemeinde."

Weeks later, following lengthy discussions/debates in front of an arbitrator:

"Die Zufriedenstellung der Gemeinde wurde erreicht indem der Pastor erklärte, im Nothfalle Andersgläubige als Taufpathen herangezogen werden sollten, welches nur bei Gemeindegliedern geschehen darf, diese als Taufzeugen (Erklärung: Zuschauer) zuzulassen."

The pastor's explanation seems contradictory to me, or perhaps a key word is missing. He also makes a distinction between Taufpathen ("godparents") and Taufzeugen ("baptismal witnesses"), but the congregation may have used the word "Taufzeugen" to mean "godparents."

Any suggestions?
Timoshka
Local time: 06:06
English translation:witnesses/sponsors (godparents)
Explanation:
or baptismal witnesses/sponsors.

"Godparents" can be used instead of "sponsors".

There is a difference between witnesses and sponsors - see my reference entry - and Johanna Timm's.

--
It is the Catholic understanding that godparents, in a liturgical and canonical sense, should themselves be members of the Church or ecclesial Community in which the baptism is being celebrated. They do not merely undertake a responsibility for the Christian education of the person being baptized (or confirmed) as a relation or friend; they are also there as representatives of a community of faith, standing as guarantees of the candidate's faith and desire for ecclesial communion.

a) However, based on the common baptism and because of ties of blood or friendship, a baptized person who belongs to another ecclesial Community may be admitted as a **witness to the baptism, but only together with a Catholic godparent**.[107] A Catholic may do the same for a person being baptized in another ecclesial Community.
--
If there is one godparent, Church law does permit, but does not encourage, the appointment of one 'Christian witness' to the baptism ceremony. This witness must be a baptized, upright, non-Catholic Christian. This 'Christian witness' takes part in the ceremony but is not a godparent. A former Catholic, a non-baptized person, or someone who does not live a virtuous Christian life can never be a Christian witness.
http://www.stjohnsphilly.com/?option=com_content&view=articl...
--
http://www.zionbeecher.net/news/2012/06/can-a-non-lutheran-b...

Can A Non Lutheran Be A Sponsor or Godparent?
...Technically, when those selected by the parents to have a role at the Baptism are not LCMS, we more properly refer to them as a “witness.” Such a person, serving as a “witness” to the Baptism, can later vouch for the fact of the child’s Christian baptism, should the need for such testimony arise later.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 days (2013-08-26 11:16:30 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

oops, a belated thank you!
Selected response from:

oa_xxx (X)
Germany
Local time: 13:06
Grading comment
Vielen Dank!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5 +2god parents / godfathers
palilula (X)
3 +3witnesses/sponsors (godparents)
oa_xxx (X)
4god parents/poss. official god parents
pacharaphet
Summary of reference entries provided
Baptismal witnesses/baptismal sponsors (godparents)
oa_xxx (X)
Pate/Zeuge
Johanna Timm, PhD

  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
god parents / godfathers


Explanation:
Jemand, der außer den Eltern bei der Taufe eines Kindes anwesend und Zeuge dieser Taufe ist (und für die christliche Erziehung des Kindes mit Verantwortung übernimmt)..


Example sentence(s):
  • Taufpaten sollen traditionell die christliche Erziehung des Kindes durch seine Eltern unterstützen.
  • A godparent, in many denominations of Christianity, is someone who sponsors a child\'s baptism. Today, the word godparent might not have explicitly religious overtones. The secular view of a godparent tends to be an individual chosen by the parents to tak

    Reference: http://www.t-online.de/ratgeber/familie/familienleben/id_574...
    Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godparent
palilula (X)
United States
Local time: 04:06
Native speaker of: Native in BulgarianBulgarian, Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Cilian O'Tuama: godparents could work in certain contexts these days, but Ev. Lutheran in 1911?
10 mins
  -> Please read the link I attached.
agree  Teresa Reinhardt: godparents
26 mins
  -> Thank you!
agree  BrigitteHilgner: godparents
5 hrs
  -> Thank you!
neutral  oa_xxx (X): are you suggesting godparents for both Taufpaten and Taufzeugen?
13 hrs
  -> Yes! And the dictionary says the same: http://www.dict.cc/?s=Taufzeuge&failed_kw=taufzeugen Witness in court only makes sense to me. Why give new meaning to that word. And godparents is such a good traditional word.
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4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
god parents/poss. official god parents


Explanation:
Taufzeuge is usually the sort of demoted term for godparents outside of the denomination, whereas Taufpater refers to one of the same denomination. A Catholic family with the god father who is Catholic and god mother being Prostetant would have then one Taufpater and one Taufzeugin. It seems the term Taufzeuge is mostly used in this circumstance, or, in some regional variations, one might use the two terms interchangably.

pacharaphet
Thailand
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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15 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +3
witnesses/sponsors (godparents)


Explanation:
or baptismal witnesses/sponsors.

"Godparents" can be used instead of "sponsors".

There is a difference between witnesses and sponsors - see my reference entry - and Johanna Timm's.

--
It is the Catholic understanding that godparents, in a liturgical and canonical sense, should themselves be members of the Church or ecclesial Community in which the baptism is being celebrated. They do not merely undertake a responsibility for the Christian education of the person being baptized (or confirmed) as a relation or friend; they are also there as representatives of a community of faith, standing as guarantees of the candidate's faith and desire for ecclesial communion.

a) However, based on the common baptism and because of ties of blood or friendship, a baptized person who belongs to another ecclesial Community may be admitted as a **witness to the baptism, but only together with a Catholic godparent**.[107] A Catholic may do the same for a person being baptized in another ecclesial Community.
--
If there is one godparent, Church law does permit, but does not encourage, the appointment of one 'Christian witness' to the baptism ceremony. This witness must be a baptized, upright, non-Catholic Christian. This 'Christian witness' takes part in the ceremony but is not a godparent. A former Catholic, a non-baptized person, or someone who does not live a virtuous Christian life can never be a Christian witness.
http://www.stjohnsphilly.com/?option=com_content&view=articl...
--
http://www.zionbeecher.net/news/2012/06/can-a-non-lutheran-b...

Can A Non Lutheran Be A Sponsor or Godparent?
...Technically, when those selected by the parents to have a role at the Baptism are not LCMS, we more properly refer to them as a “witness.” Such a person, serving as a “witness” to the Baptism, can later vouch for the fact of the child’s Christian baptism, should the need for such testimony arise later.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 days (2013-08-26 11:16:30 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

oops, a belated thank you!


    Reference: http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu293.htm
oa_xxx (X)
Germany
Local time: 13:06
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Vielen Dank!
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you, Orla! I think you solved my problem. I am translating the entire passage as: "The satisfaction of the congregation was achieved, as the pastor explained: if, in cases of emergency, people of other faiths should be called in as godparents, which may only happen in the case of members of the congregation, then they are to be accepted as baptismal witnesses (meaning: onlookers)." Thus, these members would not be allowed to be sponsors, to ensure that the child is raised in the Ev. Lutheran faith, but could serve as baptismal witnesses. Thanks for all your research!


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Lancashireman
1 hr
  -> and a belated thanks to you too!
agree  Helen Shiner: Good research
6 hrs
  -> Thanks Helen!
agree  Johanna Timm, PhD: At the time, a common differentiation seemed to have been "Baptismal witness/ godparent", cp.: http://users.sisna.com/mhobart/norway/laingen/ps03/ps03_441....
7 hrs
  -> Yes, thats probably the best way to go - witness/godparent. Thanks!
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Reference comments


5 hrs
Reference: Baptismal witnesses/baptismal sponsors (godparents)

Reference information:
When did the practice of sponsors for a child's baptism begin in the Church? Is there a difference between a sponsor and a witness? Which is better to have?...
http://www.wels.net/news-events/forward-in-christ/june-1998/...

The custom of having witnesses or sponsors (sponsors are also called godparents) is neither commanded or forbidden in the Bible. The Bible does not speak to this issue. So making use of baptismal sponsors (godparents) or baptismal witnesses is not necessary and not essential for a valid baptism... customarily or traditionally there are distinctions between "witnesses" and "sponsors/godparents."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2013-08-06 02:41:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sponsor (s): Baptismal sponsors must be confirmed members of a Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod Congregation.

Witness (es): Baptismal witnesses are not required to be LCMS Congregation Members.

http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=...

oa_xxx (X)
Germany
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
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7 hrs peer agreement (net): +2
Reference: Pate/Zeuge

Reference information:
(3) Bei der Verhinderung von Patinnen oder Paten sind Stellvertreter oder Stellvertreterinnen als Taufzeugen zu bestellen und im Kirchenbuch zu vermerken.
http://www.velkd.de/160.php
Taufpate kann nur der werden, wer getauft und konfirmiert ist, zu einer christlichen Kirche gehört und die Berechtigung zur Übernahme eines Patenamtes hat.[…]
Wer nicht Glied einer christlichen Kirche ist kann jedoch Taufzeuge werden, das heißt, bei der Taufe dabei sein und dem Kind später bezeugen, dass es tatsächlich getauft wurde
http://www.grossekreuz.de/ueber-uns/taufe.html?PHPSESSID=48d...
Lutherans also follow the Roman Catholic tradition that a Christian who is not affiliated with the Church may serve as a witness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godparent

Johanna Timm, PhD
Canada
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in category: 27

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  William Howden
1 hr
agree  David Moore (X): Says it all
4 hrs
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