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This question was closed without grading. Reason: Other
German to English translations [PRO] Art/Literary - Religion / Biblical studies
German term or phrase:Erzählzug
This is from a text about narrative in the Bible. The context: Der unfruchtbare Feigenbaum und die Bitte des hungrigen Kindes weisen auf eine Mangelzeit hin. Solche Erzählzüge setzen keine bunten Akzente...
that Solche Erzählzüge is completely redundant. All was accounted for in the previous sentence.
However, that is not a good reason to not assign points nor make a suggestion for a Kudoz glossary entry for fellow translators to consult, especially since the asker and at least 7 other people did not connect the dots when they were first presented earlier in the discussion.
I find it helpful. a) through c) are certainly focused on happenings, but there's more to it than events strung together.
I don't like passage, because in literature, it refers to part of a text, not events in a story. Dressing it up with narrative doesn't make it better. Definition: a narrative passage is a passage or essay that tells a story.
In the same glossary entry in your link, they refer to Motiven, which also has the essence of "move (in a game)" that the bible translator was trying to convey. Motif actually got me to this page, which is confusing and has questionable EN but makes the translator's meaning of "move" clearer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_(chess_composition)
Stipulation/Task: Die Heiligkeit eines Ortes legitimieren und die Wallfahrt zu dieser Stätte werben.
Moves (towards fulfillment of the stipulation): a) b) c)
IMO no literal translation is going to work, so one could try to recreate the concept of Erzählzüge with something like "the parts of the story that suggest __ " or "the compositional elements that express __ ".
First off, thanks! You're right about plot, of course. For some reason, the first thing that came to mind when hearing the word Bible was the Parables of Jesus. I am fond of analogies =)
Does this help too? "Ein nach Inhalt und Funktion eigener Typ der ätiologischen Erzählung ist die Heiligtumslegende (hieros logos, auch Kultgründungsätiologie oder -sage genannt, z.B. in Gen 28,10–22; vgl. 35,14f.). Sie möchte die Heiligkeit eines Ortes legitimieren und für die Wallfahrt zu dieser Stätte werben. Sie zeichnet sich durch bestimmte Erzählzüge aus: a) zufällige Konfrontation mit der Heiligkeit einer Stätte durch eine Theophanie, b) Errichtung / Stiftung eines Altars, c) Benennung der Stätte." https://www.etf.uni-bonn.de/de/ev-theol/projekte/bel/a-z/a/a...
https://epdf.tips/grundinformation-altes-testament.html# Augenfälliger noch als die Aufnahme biblischer Aussagen im Jonabuch ist die Übernahme des Motivs, dass der Protagonist durch einen Fisch verschlungen und wieder ausgespieen wird. Motivgeschichtlich steht hinter diesem Erzählzug ein Sonnenmythos (die Sonne wird nachts von einem Fisch verschluckt und morgens wieder ausgespieen), der in der christlichen → Ikonographie noch dadurch nachwirkt, dass Jona in der Regel glatzköpfig dargestellt wird, da ihm aufgrund der Hitze im Inneren des Fisches die Haare verbrannt sind.
http://www.atmotive.ch/motiv/ Ein Motiv ist ein kleines Element einer Erzählung. Abgeleitet vom lateinischen Verb „movere“ bezeichnet es einen minimalen schematisierbaren Erzählzug, der in der Lage ist, eine Erzählung in Gang zu setzen, bzw. im Leser zu evozieren.
In a religious studies work that I edited, the author frequently used the word "happening(s)" in an unusual way. In one case, I changed it to "the events of his story."
https://www.examples.com/education/examples-of-narrative-sum... However, in a narrative summary, the essence of the dramatic highlights in the plot of the story are being summarized. It is less detailed in terms of visualization but the plot points are still present.
Moral high ground successfully secured. Fortunately, the answerer poised to be automatically awarded the points at the end of the fortnight (on the basis of agrees from such luminaries as S Walter and J Timm PhD - see All-Time Leaderboard) has no interest in scoring points.
All we've been saying is: - you haven't been cooperative in helping us help you - there was no good reason to close the question if there was no resolution and many interested people
David, I said what I think in my longish discussion entry on 3 November - and if AllegroTrans or Lancashireman had bothered to read it, they might realise it's not a matter of being "clueless" at all. Kudoz is very good for technical terminology, at least if the only acceptable outcome is an unambiguous, single answer, and if people care about winning points. In a case like this, where actually the useful and important input has been in the discussion, I think it doesn't do so well: the best option is "Other", and that's unsatisfactory; at least, it is IF you insist that each term must have a single answer and nothing else matters. For me, for this text, which is full of nuance and has been written with a poet's care for words, the outcome has been really helpful.
If an asker is as clueless at the end of the process as they were at the beginning, the honourable course of action is to leave it to the KudoZ robot at the end of the 14-day period of grace.
Asker isn’t required to select the 'dead right' answer but is asked to select the 'most helpful answer'. Thus the glossary will, as we all well know, be merely a tool and not an authority. My own view is that unless all answers are unacceptable an asker should close by selecting the best one offered.
having said that, it's also perfectly possible that the asker is an expert and can evaluate perfectly well but I still maintain that it's an area that has to be addressed....
in the end it's up to the asker and that's a weak link in the chain... we may be right or wrong and in many cases the asker isn't in a position to decide what's right or wrong so maybe we should try to correct this aspect but not easy...
I'm sorry if you feel that this is a "later losers" conclusion: it's anything but. The fact is that none of the Kudoz options is satisfactory. "Answer found elsewhere" or "No acceptable answer" -- well, no: the discussion has actually been so stimulating that it has provided possible answers for both this instance of "Erzählzüge" and others in the text. The only option left is "Other", inane as you rightly say it is. "Narrative passages" is certainly acceptable; but so are other suggestions both there (e.g. "storylines", "strands"). And actually it's the contributions in the Discussion section that are most helpful (e.g. the association of "-zug" with force). So: my sincere thanks do go to everyone who has contributed, and especially those who have linked to biblical commentaries etc. I'm still not decided on which option to use, here or elsewhere in the translation, and think it might be one to save up for when I've been through more of the text. The original text has been written with such a careful choice of words that it isn't something to gobble through, but to savour and digest slowly. I'll find a solution for this -- eventually -- and will let you know.
Why would you return to close without grading, offering the fairly inane explanation "Other", when you are undecided what your final version will be? Outcomes of this kind are remembered on future occasions.
I think the German bible translator knew what Erzaehlzug meant, but had trouble translating it into English. He did write that -zug "has the force of" (strategic) move. Seems to me like an aspect of the telling of the story that is erzähltechnisch kalkuliert. https://www.diegesis.uni-wuppertal.de/index.php/diegesis/art...
Perhaps I will have time to read more on it later.
"'Und gingen die beiden miteinander.' Zu demselben Erzählzug gehört die Rückkehr Abrahams zu den Knechten V.19a, die nach Abschluß der Erzählung ergänzt ist. 'Und sie gingen miteinander nach Beerscheba.'" http://www.theologische-buchhandlung.de/pdf/978-3-525-53838-...
"Würde derselbe Erzählzug vorbereitend motiviert und so geschickter narrativ integriert, so könnte er immer noch entsprechend durchschaut werden, sollte aber nicht – so der terminologische Vorschlag – ‚von hinten motiviert‘ genannt werden."
"Erzählzüge werden vorwiegend linear gereiht, sie bleiben oft unverbunden, und raumzeitliche Passungen lenken das Geschehen. In die Figuren werden keine Spuren der Zeit hineingetragen. Sie sind wie auch die Erzählzüge nur Funktionen des Plots.77 Dieser kennt keine parallelen Handlungsstränge, die den Eindruck gleichzeitigen Geschehens befördern würden"
The line before in the example (He has one of the Creole’s white officers, Tom Grant, tell the story of the rebellion after the fact to sailors at a Virginia coffeehouse), makes sense with narrative move.
It's a from an associate professor (and translator) at Georgia University: "-zug: in compounds this can have the force of 'feature' (e.g. Charakterzug, Gesichtszug), but also of 'move' (e.g. Erzählzug), i.e. as in a game (draw)." https://germanforneutestamentler.com/coppinsdictionary/
Sure, we can translate the term - I even believe you can leave out 'narrative' and just say passages - but why bother with KEINE? That what's intriguing.
I decided to end the quote there to avoid confusion. The whole sentence, outside a much broader context, just sounds weird. And I've clearly given enough for the word "Erzählzüge".
peer agreement (net): +6
