argumentatio seu probatio rectitudinis credulitatis aut operationis

English translation: arguments proving the rightness of beliefs and actions

08:24 Jun 7, 2006
Latin to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting / Drama
Latin term or phrase: argumentatio seu probatio rectitudinis credulitatis aut operationis
This is from a Latin translation of Aristotle's Poetics. I don't need an exact translation, only an idea of the meaning.
JoGunn
Local time: 14:59
English translation:arguments proving the rightness of beliefs and actions
Explanation:
Literally it means: "both arguments and proofs of the rightness either of the beliefs or of the actions", with hendiadic usage of "sive/seu", quite common in Middle Ages Latin.
The Latin you have is the translation by Hermannus Contractus (Augensis) of the Arabic version of Aristotle's Poetics by Averroes.



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Note added at 4 hrs (2006-06-07 12:30:42 GMT)
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The full quote, referring to and translating the fifth element of drama, i.e. ópsis "sight, what can be seen", is:
"consideratio, scilicet argumentatio seu probatio rectitudinis credulitatis aut operationis non per sermonem persuasivum (hoc enim non pertinet huic arti neque est conveniens ei) sed per sermonem representativum"
meaning that "ópsis" is "an explanation, i.e. an argument proving the rightness of the beliefs and of the actions, not through rethoric (which is neither peculiar to nor proper for this art), but through representation/interpretation".


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2006-06-07 12:31:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I forgot to quote the source of the full Latin translation by Augensis of Averroes' definition for "ópsis".
Sorry!
http://www.miserabili.com/2004/07/17/eco_la_metafora_nel_med...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2006-06-07 18:44:42 GMT)
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"credulitas", which in classical Latin meant "gullibility", as Joseph rightly rendered, came to mean "faith, belief" in Late and Medieval Latin. That's why I added the note that the translation you have is by Hermannnus Contractus, who lived in the 11th century.

Cfr. this example taken from a prayer in a Medieval "Passio" (a marthyr's passion): "caecis lumen, titubantibus credulitas" (i.d. sight to the blind, faith to the faltering ones).
Selected response from:

Leonardo Marcello Pignataro (X)
Local time: 15:59
Grading comment
Thank you.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5 +2arguments proving the rightness of beliefs and actions
Leonardo Marcello Pignataro (X)
5indication or proof of rectitude, cruelty, or beneficence
William Short
5a demonstration or test of [one's] uprightness, gullibility, or industry
Joseph Brazauskas
4argument proved by credible, upright means or through practice
Robert Tucker (X)


  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
argument proved by credible, upright means or through practice


Explanation:
argumentatio seu probatio rectitudinis credulitatis aut operationis non per sermonem persuasivum

argument proved by credible, upright means or through practice, not by rhetoric

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2006-06-07 12:55:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"argumentio" and "probatio" are both nominative - the argument is a statement of or constituted of the proof

"rectitudinis" "credulitatis "and "operationis" are all genitive

I don't quite know whether operationis "hinges" on "probatio rectitudinis" or just on "probatio"


argument whether credible, upright proof or practical (upright) proof

the argument whether it is a credible, upright proof or a practical (upright) proof


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Note added at 4 hrs (2006-06-07 13:17:37 GMT)
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My use of English would see little (if any) difference here between:

argument proved by credible, upright means or through practice

and:

argument constituted of credible, upright proof or practical (upright) proof

Robert Tucker (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:59
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  William Short: malum, tibi assentior!! crudelitatis legebam pro credulitatis!
6 mins

disagree  Leonardo Marcello Pignataro (X): "credulitatis" and "operationis" are explanatory genitives hinging on "rectitudinis", they are not expressing means or manner, as "per sermonem" /It should then be "probatio per rectitudinem credulitatis aut operationis", which is not.
1 hr
  -> Please see above / ... and again

neutral  Joseph Brazauskas: 'Pro crudelitate'.
4 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
indication or proof of rectitude, cruelty, or beneficence


Explanation:
...

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Note added at 5 hrs (2006-06-07 14:08:43 GMT)
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To the asker: As noted below, I misread one of the words in the original posting. Please disregard this answer and choose one of the excellent renditions below!

William Short
Italy
Local time: 15:59
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Leonardo Marcello Pignataro (X): Hi, William. maybe you should add a note explaining your misreading, just in case the asker cannot read the Latin of your agree to Robert... And welcome to Kudoz! :-)
4 hrs

neutral  Joseph Brazauskas: It's credulitatis', not 'crudelitatis', as Leonardo states.
4 hrs
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
a demonstration or test of [one's] uprightness, gullibility, or industry


Explanation:
'argumentatio' = 'a bringing forth [properly before a court of law] of a proof or piece of evidence';
'seu' (more commonly 'sive' in prose) means, in this context, 'or', being almost equivilent to 'vel', which would have implied an indifference of choice between the alternatives, while 'aut' indicates that a choice is to be made between 'credulitatis' and 'operationis' (which latter here means 'ijndustry' in the sense of 'zealousness in regard to one's work'.)



Joseph Brazauskas
United States
Local time: 10:59
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in SpanishSpanish
PRO pts in category: 16

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Leonardo Marcello Pignataro (X): In Middle Ages Latin "credulitas" came to mean "argumentum fidei", i.e. faith, belief
4 hrs
  -> Thank you for the correction. I must read more outside the classical period!
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
arguments proving the rightness of beliefs and actions


Explanation:
Literally it means: "both arguments and proofs of the rightness either of the beliefs or of the actions", with hendiadic usage of "sive/seu", quite common in Middle Ages Latin.
The Latin you have is the translation by Hermannus Contractus (Augensis) of the Arabic version of Aristotle's Poetics by Averroes.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2006-06-07 12:30:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The full quote, referring to and translating the fifth element of drama, i.e. ópsis "sight, what can be seen", is:
"consideratio, scilicet argumentatio seu probatio rectitudinis credulitatis aut operationis non per sermonem persuasivum (hoc enim non pertinet huic arti neque est conveniens ei) sed per sermonem representativum"
meaning that "ópsis" is "an explanation, i.e. an argument proving the rightness of the beliefs and of the actions, not through rethoric (which is neither peculiar to nor proper for this art), but through representation/interpretation".


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2006-06-07 12:31:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I forgot to quote the source of the full Latin translation by Augensis of Averroes' definition for "ópsis".
Sorry!
http://www.miserabili.com/2004/07/17/eco_la_metafora_nel_med...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2006-06-07 18:44:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"credulitas", which in classical Latin meant "gullibility", as Joseph rightly rendered, came to mean "faith, belief" in Late and Medieval Latin. That's why I added the note that the translation you have is by Hermannnus Contractus, who lived in the 11th century.

Cfr. this example taken from a prayer in a Medieval "Passio" (a marthyr's passion): "caecis lumen, titubantibus credulitas" (i.d. sight to the blind, faith to the faltering ones).

Leonardo Marcello Pignataro (X)
Local time: 15:59
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in ItalianItalian
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Thank you.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Joseph Brazauskas: Mire doctum!
2 hrs
  -> Always too kind! :-)

agree  Alfa Trans (X)
1 day 1 hr
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