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Spanish to English translations [PRO] Social Sciences - Anthropology / Spain - urban development
Spanish term or phrase:un discurso ideológico ciudadanista
The following sentence is from a rather passionate critique of city planning and government in the Spanish city of Bilbao, and specifically of billion-dollar projects that have, in the authors' view, benefited oligarchies at the expense of common citizens, and have involved the complicity of city government:
En cualquier caso, este modelo material y formal de gestión de la ciudad neoliberal, se acompaña de ***un discurso ideológico ciudadanista*** que cierra el círculo de la despolitización-repolitización urbana. Despolitización porque este discurso transforma la calle (conflictiva, plural, creativa, etc., por definición) en un espacio público que invisibiliza el conflicto, niega la pluralidad de lo que no se considera una “buena práctica ciudadana” y anula la creatividad vecinal con un programa teledirigido de pasividad, cuyo ejemplo paradigmático son los “bancos autistas,” separados entre sí, que permiten al buen ciudadano descansar, pero no hablar, relacionarse… conspirar.
The only other use of *ciudadanista* is much earlier in paper:
Como veremos, al objeto de legitimar la estrategia del “cercamiento urbano a lo público,” el primer modelo se asienta en la espectacularidad y se apoya en ***un discurso ciudadanista*** que trata de diluir las contradicciones inherentes a lo urbano (desigualdades, conflictos, exclusiones, etc.).
Explanation: citizen-oriented = aimed at/focused on citizens
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I don't think we should read too much into the text, or imbue with ouw own preconceptions.
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our
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If a "discourse" is aimed at/designed to appeal to/focus on a certain group (here, citizens), it does not mean that others could not listen to it. (Where anyone would get that idea I don't know)...
In the end, I went with me very own "ideological discourse based on 'good citizenship'" (with "good citizenship" in quotation marks). Neilmac's suggestion is closest to my solution, so he gets the points.
In response to Charles' stimulating musings on this query, I really think the term "ciudadanista" is being used in an entirely idiosyncratic and sarcastic way here. *Not* seeing the term in such a light would have the Kukutza supporters using a laudatory label to represent the ideology of a group that they clearly loathe. This, I feel, would be ludicrous.
Thanks to all! (And let's hope that we don't reach the point where a "Translators Occupy" endeavor of any kind becomes an object of serious discussion.... 3 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer
I'm really not sure. I first read it as meaning that those responsible for running and promoting the "neoliberal city" adopt a "ciudadanista" discourse dishonestly, in order to depoliticise the issue by pretending to have the citizens' interests at heart: pretending they are all on the same side and there is no conflict, defusing dissent by a spurious pretence of solidarity with the concerns of ordinary citizens. I still find this reading persuasive.
However, that still leaves the precise meaning of "ciudadanista" open. Maybe it is being used here to mean promoting a concept of (good) citizenship, articulating an idea of what "ciudadanía" means or should mean. This is not what it usually means; it's well established, particularly in Spain, in the sense I've been outlining, referring to the "new social movements", and that being so it would be surprising if the author were using it in a different sense. But it's not impossible, certainly. (I don't feel I'm being very helpful, but I'm doing my best!)
I agree with you about the ironic use of the term *ciudadanista.* This is at the heart of the question we are debating here (see my last note to Charles).
You´re right, Robert about it being "discourse" instead of "speech", but after reading the text about four times it´s seems to me that "ciudadanista" is used here in an ironic sense. The author criticizes the goverment for pretending to care for its citizens. Take a look: "En cualquier caso, este modelo material y formal de gestión de la ciudad neoliberal, se acompaña de ***un discurso ideológico ciudadanista*** que cierra el círculo de la despolitización-repolitización urbana. Despolitización porque este discurso transforma la calle (conflictiva, plural, creativa, etc., por definición) en un espacio público que invisibiliza el conflicto, niega la pluralidad de lo que no se considera una “buena práctica ciudadana”" Particularly: "El modelo de la gestión 'se acompaña' de un discurso ideológico ciudadanista.
No apologies necessary. Yet in the context of the paper from which this query was drawn, it would seem that "ciudadanista" neatly expresses the ideology of those *opposed* to the official discourse. Therefore it would be surprising for this label (i.e., as you have defined it) to be applied *by these opponents to the official discourse.*
Does this consideration change the views you've previously expressed in this thread?
I am sorry to be difficult, but I'm very doubtful about whether the word "citizenship" should be in there at all. "Ciudadanismo" is really civic activism or civic engagement. It's a postmodern replacement for the proletarian class struggle, and is not class-conscious at all. It's essentially political, and though it invokes the concept of individual values and responsibilities embodied in the word "citizen", it's essentially collective. It's opposed to neoliberalism, aimed at revitalising democracy and humanising capitalism. I would be tempted to consider something like "civic activist", because "civic engagement" unfortunately doesn't have an adjectival form.
I think part of the translator's remit is to set aside his/her own prejudices and preconceptions as far as possible when translating. I see nothing in the original sentence about patriotism, nationalism or anything about a "diatribe". Maybe I'm looking at the wrong page...?
The problem with your suggestion (and that of Danik) is that "discurso" here does not refer to "speech" or "a speech," but rather to *a way of thinking reflected in speech* (i.e., an ideology).
I think the best choice is "an ideological and patriotic speech". There seems to be a tendency to expound too much on nuances and to lose focus on the original text.
"ideological discourse based on 'good citizenship'"
...keeping in mind that this is a rather contemptuous label being applied by those passionately opposed to such a discourse?
The vague and anodyne "good citizenship" seems to capture the opposition's idea that those embracing such a view are like well-behaved sheep. Placing "good citizenship" in quotation marks would seem to reinforce the point.
Opinions on this? (If anyone is still paying attention.) :)
Maybe something like 'ideological discourse about citizenship/empowering citizens' would be a solution, to get away from using 'civic' and having to worry about adjective order?
I don't deny that "civic discourse" is a natural coupling in English. But I think this reflects the problem, which is that I'm not convinced "civic" is quite right for "ciudadanista". It's certainly a broader term. A "movimiento ciudadanista" could be described as a civic movement, a movement of citizens, but it's not really a movement about the values of citizenship, at least it's not about what it means to be a good citizen. It's essentially a political term: power to the people, as you might say. "Ciudadanismo" is a political ideology (or at least socio-political), reflected in Spain in "Ciutadans" and "Podemos". But I can't think of a better English term.
But for once I don't agree, David, because I don't think "ideológico" is an adjective of opinion here. The Spanish word order, to my mind, is the clincher. "Un discurso ideológico ciudadanista" is a certain sort of "discurso ideológico", not a certain sort of "discurso ciudadanista". The discourse is of an ideological nature, and "ciudadanista" is telling you which sort of ideology is involved.
both for its rhythm and what I consider its consistency with principles of English adjective order. Opinion before fact (e.g. attractive red dress): surely the fact is that it's civic, and the opinion that it's ideological? That it's a civic discourse is undeniable; the extent to which it's ideological may be open to dispute.
I also take Phil's point about 'ending on a long note', but don't think this is enough of a list for that to apply here.
Thanks for the article, Phil. Very good advice to keep n mind. Charles explained better than I could why I used "civic ideologic discourse." I did not formulate that thought very coherently when I came up with the phrase. I considered both options and decided that "civic discourse" needed to stay together. Cheers!
I was wondering about "populist", actually; populism is more openly pejorative than "ciudadanismo" (though the latter is pejorative on the left, where it's seen as deceptive or self-deceptive), but in this case it's the neoliberals adopting a discourse that purports to express solidarity with movements promoting the values and aspirations of ordinary citizens, which is arguably tantamount to populism.
Unfortunately the word "citizenism", in the United States, is really a nicer way of saying white supremacism: the word has essentially been hijacked as to denote an anti-immigrant ideology (pro-citizen = anti-non-citizen). So wrong connotations.
But I think I'd vote for "civic ideological discourse", since civic is really the best word for the "ciudadanista" movements. And it should be that way round, not just because of the rhythm (though that too) but primarily because that's the logical order: it's an ideological discourse of a civic kind, not a civic discourse of an ideological kind.
I also hesitated regarding the order of the words. Would you care to expound on why would you prefer "Civic ideological discourse" over "ideological civic discourse"?
I was thinking of suggesting that, but since I'm not familiar with the term "cuidadanista" I decided to sit this one out.
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
16 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): +2
an ideological and citizenship exalting speech
Explanation: Sugerencia Or maybe an ideological and patriotic speech.
Danik 2014 Brazil Native speaker of: German, Portuguese
3 hrs confidence: peer agreement (net): +3
ideological civic discourse
Explanation: Since colleagues of the caliber of Phil and Charles support this option, I'll go ahead and submit it for your consideration. That said, I would not be terribly surprised if someone shows up with a more precise English term for "cuidadanismo." I'd leave the question open a few days to see what happens. Cheers!
George Rabel Local time: 19:17 Native speaker of: Spanish