Nobleza señorial

English translation: seigneurial nobility

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Spanish term or phrase:Nobleza señorial
English translation:seigneurial nobility
Entered by: broca

09:59 Nov 29, 2018
Spanish to English translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - History
Spanish term or phrase: Nobleza señorial
"EL SERVICIO A LA NOBLEZA SEÑORIAL COMO VÍA DE PROMOCIÓN SOCIAL: LOS SEÑORES DE EL PUERTO Y LOS CABALLEROS JEREZANOS (1480‒1520)"

Title of journal article. Sorry I have no more context.
broca
Local time: 09:18
seigneurial nobility
Explanation:
I am indebted to Robert Carter for suggesting this alternative. On reflection, I think it would be preferable here to my first suggestion, "landed nobility", so with Robert's encouragement I offer it as an alternative.

I think it is clear that "señorial" refers to possessing and exercising "señorío", which means, in the words of the article I cited in my first answer, "dominación sobre tierras y hombres". Landed estates are estates that generate income, through rents of various kinds. This is one of the bases of feudalism. Indeed, it would not be altogether inaccurate to translate this term as "feudal nobility". However, the word "feudal" is really associated with the medieval period, and by the early modern period (starting in the late fifteenth century) the social system underlying feudalsim in the strict sense was changing, so the word "feudal" is to some extent an anachronism: the medieval vassal-lord relationship was evolving into something a bit different; the theory underlying the feudal system of rights and mutual obligations

It is customary among English-speaking historians of Spain to refer to the higher nobles who held estates in the early modern period as "seigneurial", and I think that is how "señorial" is being used here. Although it is accurate to call them "landed" nobles, I think "seigneurial" captures the full implications of "señorial" better: not just possession of land but the economic control over people, now tenants rather than strictly vassals in the old sense. This is particularly true of Andalusia, where the system of large estates or latifundios was perpetuated.

Some examples of "seigneurial nobility" in relation to Spain. The following, by Brian Hamnett (Emeritus Profesor of History at Essex University), is about the eighteenth century, underlining the perpetuation of the seigneurial system in Spain, as in France, right up to the French Revolution (1812 in the case of Spain):

"Bringing new talent, often from provincial and lesser nobilities, into ministerial positions did not affect the continuing social dominance of the seigneurial nobility, civil or ecclesiastical, beyond immediate court circles."
https://books.google.es/books?id=X81RDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT135&lpg=P...

"Up until 1812 the class of great landowners formally constituted the seigneurial nobility"
Carlos Marichal, Spain, 1834-1844: A New Society
https://books.google.es/books?id=GIM1sxP8XBAC&pg=PA12
(Marichal is Mexican but he studied at Harvard and his English is perfectly reliable.)

And a number of references to the "seigneurial" system in Spain can be found in the work of reliable historians. I think it's suitable here.
Selected response from:

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 09:18
Grading comment
Thank you
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +3landed nobility
Charles Davis
4 +2seigneurial nobility
Charles Davis
3Manorial aristocracy
Ana Vozone


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


12 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
Manorial aristocracy


Explanation:
https://www.google.pt/search?ei=_Lr_W4uMO_XRxgOb74s4&q="mano...

Ana Vozone
Local time: 08:18
Native speaker of: Native in PortuguesePortuguese
PRO pts in category: 8
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

26 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
landed nobility


Explanation:
It looks like a tautology at first sight, but I think "señorial" does add something, and that it's this. "Nobleza señorial" refers to the section of the nobility that had señorío in the old feudal sense of land, property and a dependent population. There was also a "nobleza no señorial" which was primarily urban.

"La nobleza señorial tan sólo consiguió la propiedad plena de sus señoríos allí donde ya lo había hecho durante el siglo XVIII [...]. A esas dificultades se añadió el frecuente desplazamiento de antiguas oligarquías municipales, representantes de una nobleza no señorial —o incluso antiseñorial en ocasiones— que combinaban la propiedad con el uso del privilegio y que se reforzaban con la utilización, muy extendida en España, del mayorazgo".
https://books.google.es/books?id=UJtPojieZSIC&pg=PT25

Here's an article, quite an important one in this area, on "La nobleza señorial en el reinado de Alfonso X":

"Resulta obvio que, como si resultara una redundancia, existió un nexo perfecto entre los conceptos y las realidades de “nobleza” y “señorial”, porque la alta nobleza no habría sido tal sin esa capacidad de dominación sobre tierras y hombres."
Dialnet-LaNoblezaSenorialEnElReinadoDeAlfonsoXConstitucion-5176657.pdf

I think you could make a case for using "higher nobility", but I don't think that's quite it. "Landed" is closer to the idea of "señorial", I think.

"Aristocratic ambition was also associated to a conduct related with the ways of life and values that formed the identifying hallmarks of the nobleza señorial, or landed nobility, as the dominant group in all kingdoms"
https://www.brepolsonline.net/doi/pdf/10.5555/M.SEUH-EB.6.09...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 28 mins (2018-11-29 10:27:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Proper link for second ref is:
https://dialnet.unirioja.es/descarga/articulo/5176657.pdf

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 46 mins (2018-11-29 10:45:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

It is a bit. Off the top of my head maybe "the knightly class of/in Jerez" might be worth considering. But don't hold me to it!

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 09:18
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 312
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you, Charles. "Caballeros jerezanos" is another tricky translation.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Carol Gullidge: sounds logical! (not to mention noblesse oblige... (only joking!))/ noblest => noblesse, of course (wretched predictatext - that wasn't me trying to be clever!)
33 mins
  -> Thanks a lot, Carol :-)) That's a relief! I was thinking I was too stupid to understand the pun :-)

agree  Yvonne Gallagher
1 hr
  -> Many thanks, Yvonne :-)

agree  neilmac: Lord Snooty and his pals :-)
1 hr
  -> Cheers, Neil :-) You've just taken me back... I'd better not say how many years.

neutral  Robert Carter: Not sure about this. I think there's a case for "seigneurial" or even "señorial" nobility. My first thought was "feudal nobility", which is basically right, but there are some nuances depending on the specific region concerned, and the era.
6 hrs
  -> After further reflection and reading I'm coming round to the view that seigneurial (not feudal) might well be what's wanted here. I should have thought of it. If you felt like posting it, I'd agree. I won't delete this because I think it's defensible.
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

2 days 6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
seigneurial nobility


Explanation:
I am indebted to Robert Carter for suggesting this alternative. On reflection, I think it would be preferable here to my first suggestion, "landed nobility", so with Robert's encouragement I offer it as an alternative.

I think it is clear that "señorial" refers to possessing and exercising "señorío", which means, in the words of the article I cited in my first answer, "dominación sobre tierras y hombres". Landed estates are estates that generate income, through rents of various kinds. This is one of the bases of feudalism. Indeed, it would not be altogether inaccurate to translate this term as "feudal nobility". However, the word "feudal" is really associated with the medieval period, and by the early modern period (starting in the late fifteenth century) the social system underlying feudalsim in the strict sense was changing, so the word "feudal" is to some extent an anachronism: the medieval vassal-lord relationship was evolving into something a bit different; the theory underlying the feudal system of rights and mutual obligations

It is customary among English-speaking historians of Spain to refer to the higher nobles who held estates in the early modern period as "seigneurial", and I think that is how "señorial" is being used here. Although it is accurate to call them "landed" nobles, I think "seigneurial" captures the full implications of "señorial" better: not just possession of land but the economic control over people, now tenants rather than strictly vassals in the old sense. This is particularly true of Andalusia, where the system of large estates or latifundios was perpetuated.

Some examples of "seigneurial nobility" in relation to Spain. The following, by Brian Hamnett (Emeritus Profesor of History at Essex University), is about the eighteenth century, underlining the perpetuation of the seigneurial system in Spain, as in France, right up to the French Revolution (1812 in the case of Spain):

"Bringing new talent, often from provincial and lesser nobilities, into ministerial positions did not affect the continuing social dominance of the seigneurial nobility, civil or ecclesiastical, beyond immediate court circles."
https://books.google.es/books?id=X81RDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT135&lpg=P...

"Up until 1812 the class of great landowners formally constituted the seigneurial nobility"
Carlos Marichal, Spain, 1834-1844: A New Society
https://books.google.es/books?id=GIM1sxP8XBAC&pg=PA12
(Marichal is Mexican but he studied at Harvard and his English is perfectly reliable.)

And a number of references to the "seigneurial" system in Spain can be found in the work of reliable historians. I think it's suitable here.

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 09:18
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 312
Grading comment
Thank you

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Chema Nieto Castañón: What about manorial nobility? // Clear enough! Thanks a lot!!
8 hrs
  -> Thanks, Chema :-) The word "manorial" is strongly associated with Britain (and Ireland) and to me it's culturally inappropriate to apply it to Spain.

agree  Robert Carter: You make a good case, Charles. I think, as it's Spain, I'd still prefer senorial/señorial, or perhaps the alternative spelling of "seigneurial": "seigniorial", but that's quibbling really. Thanks for laying it out so clearly. :-)
10 hrs
  -> Many thanks, Robert :-) I am a proxy for you here. I don't think the spelling is significant, really. You mentioned that you found only one case of "señorial"; it's in a passage translated from Spanish.
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)



Login or register (free and only takes a few minutes) to participate in this question.

You will also have access to many other tools and opportunities designed for those who have language-related jobs (or are passionate about them). Participation is free and the site has a strict confidentiality policy.

KudoZ™ translation help

The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.


See also:
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search