Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
le doux, le piquant
English translation:
(the) sweet, (the) pungent / sharp
Added to glossary by
Charles Davis
Mar 31, 2015 14:10
9 yrs ago
French term
Fast and Accurate
Native in: English
Works in: Russian to English, French to English, Italian to English, and 1 more.
le doux, le piquant
French to English
Social Sciences
History
This is from Paul Faure's "Parfums et aromates de l’antiquité":
Tout au plus distinguons-nous grossièrement quelques saveurs et quelques odeurs élémentaires : d’un côté, le salé, l’amer, le sucré, (les Anciens disaient plus confusément ***le doux, le piquant***) sensations pour lesquelles existent sur la langue des récepteurs distincts ; d’un autre côté, ce qui sent bon et ce qui sent mauvais, sensations purement subjectives et dont les registres varient d’un individu à l’autre. Il a fallu toute la science des physiologistes et des chimistes modernes pour nous apprendre cinq types principaux de parfums : les fleuris ou éthérés, les fruités, les boisés, les fauves (cuirs et chairs), les épicés
Tout au plus distinguons-nous grossièrement quelques saveurs et quelques odeurs élémentaires : d’un côté, le salé, l’amer, le sucré, (les Anciens disaient plus confusément ***le doux, le piquant***) sensations pour lesquelles existent sur la langue des récepteurs distincts ; d’un autre côté, ce qui sent bon et ce qui sent mauvais, sensations purement subjectives et dont les registres varient d’un individu à l’autre. Il a fallu toute la science des physiologistes et des chimistes modernes pour nous apprendre cinq types principaux de parfums : les fleuris ou éthérés, les fruités, les boisés, les fauves (cuirs et chairs), les épicés
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +2 | the sweet, the pungent |
Charles Davis
|
| 4 +2 | the sweet, the hot |
Francois Boye
|
| 4 | The sweet, the spicy. |
Ben Lenthall
|
| 3 | sweet and sour ; mild and spicy |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
|
References
| Sweet and bitter? |
B D Finch
|
Change log
Mar 31, 2015 15:11: tatyana000 changed "Field (specific)" from "Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc." to "Cooking / Culinary"
Apr 1, 2015 14:56: tatyana000 changed "Field (specific)" from "Cooking / Culinary" to "History"
Apr 7, 2015 07:58: Charles Davis Created KOG entry
Apr 7, 2015 07:59: Charles Davis changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/1321043">Charles Davis's</a> old entry - "le doux, le piquant"" to ""the sweet, the pungent""
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Non-PRO (1): philgoddard
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Proposed translations
+2
1 hr
Selected
the sweet, the pungent
It's quite true that "sucré" and "doux" both translate as sweet. I don't think there's any way round this; you'll have to use "sweet" for both, I think.
But ancient thinking on taste, like so much else, goes back to Aristotle, who writes on this in De anima (On the Soul), 422b10-16, where he defines the two most basic flavours:
"As flavours may be divided into (a) sweet, (b) bitter, so with smells. In some things the flavour and the smell have the same quality, i.e. both are sweet or both bitter, in others they diverge. Similarly a smell, like a flavour, may be pungent, astringent, acid, or succulent. But, as we said, because smells are much less easy to discriminate than flavours, the names of these varieties are applied to smells only metaphorically; for example 'sweet' is extended from the taste to the smell of saffron or honey, 'pungent' to that of thyme, and so on. "
http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/soul.2.ii.html
Aristotle's words are γλυκύ and πικρόν.
http://books.google.es/books?id=QPnxaraJ7LQC&pg=PA319#v=onep...
Nearly every source you look at gives these as "sweet" and "bitter". However, Faure has used the word "piquant", and I think that if he'd meant bitter he'd have said "amer".
Faure was a professor of Greek and worked on Mediterranean civilisation, especially Crete and Minoa, so I'm pretty sure that by "les Anciens" he means primarily Greek antiquity.
But as a Greek philologist he would have been aware of the exact sense of πικρόν, and I'm sure "piquant" is intended to reflect it. As a taste descriptor it really means "pungent" or "sharp". Not hot or spicy; Aristotle didn't mean that and I'm sure Faure didn't mean it either. Note that at the end of the passage I've quoted (translated by J. A. Smith) the two words used are sweet and pungent.
Here's part of Liddell and Scott's entry:
"πικρός , ά, όν, poet. also ός, όν Od.4.406 :—prop.
A. pointed, sharp, keen [...]
II. generally, sharp to the sense:
1. of taste, pungent [...]
III. metaph.,
1. of things, bitter, esp. of what yields pain instead of expected pleasure [...]"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pikron&la=greek#...
So I think you should translate Faure's word piquant as pungent, or sharp if you prefer.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2015-03-31 18:05:41 GMT)
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It is true that in modern usage piquant can mean hot, spicy hot, in the way that mustard or curry are bot, but it's extremely unlikely that Faure meant this, because although hot spices were not unknown in the ancient Mediterranean, it is almost unconceivable that this would have been regarded as one of the two basic flavours. That translation is an anachronism. "Piquant" embraces anything that can be regarded as opposed to sweetness, including bitter, sour, acidic or pungent.
But ancient thinking on taste, like so much else, goes back to Aristotle, who writes on this in De anima (On the Soul), 422b10-16, where he defines the two most basic flavours:
"As flavours may be divided into (a) sweet, (b) bitter, so with smells. In some things the flavour and the smell have the same quality, i.e. both are sweet or both bitter, in others they diverge. Similarly a smell, like a flavour, may be pungent, astringent, acid, or succulent. But, as we said, because smells are much less easy to discriminate than flavours, the names of these varieties are applied to smells only metaphorically; for example 'sweet' is extended from the taste to the smell of saffron or honey, 'pungent' to that of thyme, and so on. "
http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/soul.2.ii.html
Aristotle's words are γλυκύ and πικρόν.
http://books.google.es/books?id=QPnxaraJ7LQC&pg=PA319#v=onep...
Nearly every source you look at gives these as "sweet" and "bitter". However, Faure has used the word "piquant", and I think that if he'd meant bitter he'd have said "amer".
Faure was a professor of Greek and worked on Mediterranean civilisation, especially Crete and Minoa, so I'm pretty sure that by "les Anciens" he means primarily Greek antiquity.
But as a Greek philologist he would have been aware of the exact sense of πικρόν, and I'm sure "piquant" is intended to reflect it. As a taste descriptor it really means "pungent" or "sharp". Not hot or spicy; Aristotle didn't mean that and I'm sure Faure didn't mean it either. Note that at the end of the passage I've quoted (translated by J. A. Smith) the two words used are sweet and pungent.
Here's part of Liddell and Scott's entry:
"πικρός , ά, όν, poet. also ός, όν Od.4.406 :—prop.
A. pointed, sharp, keen [...]
II. generally, sharp to the sense:
1. of taste, pungent [...]
III. metaph.,
1. of things, bitter, esp. of what yields pain instead of expected pleasure [...]"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pikron&la=greek#...
So I think you should translate Faure's word piquant as pungent, or sharp if you prefer.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2015-03-31 18:05:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
It is true that in modern usage piquant can mean hot, spicy hot, in the way that mustard or curry are bot, but it's extremely unlikely that Faure meant this, because although hot spices were not unknown in the ancient Mediterranean, it is almost unconceivable that this would have been regarded as one of the two basic flavours. That translation is an anachronism. "Piquant" embraces anything that can be regarded as opposed to sweetness, including bitter, sour, acidic or pungent.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
B D Finch
: A+!
5 hrs
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Thank you very much!
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| agree |
Sheri P
: Agree that Faure prob. would've used "amer" had he meant "bitter." But I can't help wondering if he's simply varying his words, as with "sucré" and "doux"! (Other authors use "doux/amer.") Minor sugg: I'd omit comma and insert "and" betw. the terms in EN.
21 hrs
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Could be, and he might simply mean bitter, but I think it's more likely he trying to express the Greek term accurately. At one point Aristotle defines vinegar as "pikron", so it's more than just what we would call bitter. Agree re. comma. Many thanks ;)
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| neutral |
Yvonne Gallagher
: Not sure about using "pungent" as it seems rather negative (overpowering) to me. Why not just keep "piquant" =sharp/ (and hot/spicy in modern terms)?
2 days 20 hrs
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I think pungent's OK; I don't think it's inherently negative (no more so than bitter). I wouldn't mind sharp or piquant.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you! You've made a very good case for pungent."
+2
17 mins
Francois Boye
United States
United States
Native in French
United States
An economic geek with social skills
Native in: French 
Works in: English to French, French to English, Spanish to English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
3
the sweet, the hot
sweet = soft and sugary as far as tasting food is concerned.
hot = spiced as far as tasting food is concerned
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Note added at 29 mins (2015-03-31 14:39:57 GMT)
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Erratum: SPICY instead of spiced
hot = spiced as far as tasting food is concerned
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Note added at 29 mins (2015-03-31 14:39:57 GMT)
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Erratum: SPICY instead of spiced
15 hrs
The sweet, the spicy.
As a generality, spicy is used for piquant, as for instance for paprika. Cf wikipedia for paprika in French and English under varieties.
Reference:
22 hrs
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Native in English
Psychologist, Court-certified legal
Native in: English
Works in: French to English
sweet and sour ; mild and spicy
The distinction is a reference to "mild" (doux) and "spicy" but depending on your more general context, then "sweet and sour" may be helpful.
Although the French original uses the definite article, it would be much more natural in English to use adjectives here. So drop the article.
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Note added at 23 hrs (2015-04-01 13:17:47 GMT)
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Four basic tastes : sweetness, saltiness, bitterness and sourness. For the past 15 years or so, there has been scientific consensus with regard to a fifth basic taste, umami, the taste of monosodium glutamate, found in Oriental cuisine.
The Anciens did not have the benefit of modern neuroscience but evidence suggests that the faculties of taste were pretty similar to ours, notwithstanding man's ability to adapt according to whatever sources of food are available.
The thing you need to bear in mind is whether there is no reference to other sensory modalities which come into play in taste. It is now known why hot chili peppers give the sensation of heat; why mint gives the sensation of freshness. The fact that the neural mechanisms were not known by the Anciens, does not mean that they did not detect and perceive!
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Note added at 23 hrs (2015-04-01 13:20:23 GMT)
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Correction : "... whether there is any reference to other sensory modalities which come into play in taste..."
I suspect that the original is contrasting "mildness" and "spiciness" more than "sweetness" and "heat".
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 hrs (2015-04-01 13:33:09 GMT)
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Charles makes some very valid comments about the inadequancy of the term chosen in the original. It is difficult to determine how they are being used.
"Doux" can be sweet, although I think that it means "mid" here. I'm almost certain that "sweet" would have been rendered more precisely by "sucré". So I don't think that much of my own first suggestion in the answer header!
"Piquant" conveys a notion of something spicy in today's world. Is that what is meant in the French here? Difficult to say.
I like the quality of the detailed reference sources in the CNRS's online lexical resource centre, the CNRTL. Back to basics : "piquer" http://www.cnrtl.fr/lexicographie/piquant
I'm now even wondering if a more literal solution of "sting" might not be a suitable solution!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2015-04-01 20:48:04 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I've taken a closer look at this one.
Faure’s original text was written in 1987 at a time when four tastes were known. The fifth taste umami was alos known in fact, although not that widely. By the year 2000 however it had been characterised and there was scientific consensus (http://www.umamiinfo.com/2011/02/the-discovery-of-umami.php )
Here we have a writer in 1987 saying there “quelques” basic tastes, at a time when the man in the street knew that there were (at least) four : sweetness, saltiness, bitterness and sourness. Strangely enough, Faure cites only three. He then goes on to say that the Anciens “confusingly” described as “doux” and “piquant”. Confusing indeed. Five exist, the bloke on the Clapham omnibus can cite four, yet Faure (ha ha) cites only three, to say that the Anciens confusingly described with only two terms.
So where does that leave us? What does Faure actually mean?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2015-04-01 20:48:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
interesting article on Faure's book : http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/pharm...
Although the French original uses the definite article, it would be much more natural in English to use adjectives here. So drop the article.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 hrs (2015-04-01 13:17:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Four basic tastes : sweetness, saltiness, bitterness and sourness. For the past 15 years or so, there has been scientific consensus with regard to a fifth basic taste, umami, the taste of monosodium glutamate, found in Oriental cuisine.
The Anciens did not have the benefit of modern neuroscience but evidence suggests that the faculties of taste were pretty similar to ours, notwithstanding man's ability to adapt according to whatever sources of food are available.
The thing you need to bear in mind is whether there is no reference to other sensory modalities which come into play in taste. It is now known why hot chili peppers give the sensation of heat; why mint gives the sensation of freshness. The fact that the neural mechanisms were not known by the Anciens, does not mean that they did not detect and perceive!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 hrs (2015-04-01 13:20:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Correction : "... whether there is any reference to other sensory modalities which come into play in taste..."
I suspect that the original is contrasting "mildness" and "spiciness" more than "sweetness" and "heat".
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 hrs (2015-04-01 13:33:09 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Charles makes some very valid comments about the inadequancy of the term chosen in the original. It is difficult to determine how they are being used.
"Doux" can be sweet, although I think that it means "mid" here. I'm almost certain that "sweet" would have been rendered more precisely by "sucré". So I don't think that much of my own first suggestion in the answer header!
"Piquant" conveys a notion of something spicy in today's world. Is that what is meant in the French here? Difficult to say.
I like the quality of the detailed reference sources in the CNRS's online lexical resource centre, the CNRTL. Back to basics : "piquer" http://www.cnrtl.fr/lexicographie/piquant
I'm now even wondering if a more literal solution of "sting" might not be a suitable solution!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2015-04-01 20:48:04 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I've taken a closer look at this one.
Faure’s original text was written in 1987 at a time when four tastes were known. The fifth taste umami was alos known in fact, although not that widely. By the year 2000 however it had been characterised and there was scientific consensus (http://www.umamiinfo.com/2011/02/the-discovery-of-umami.php )
Here we have a writer in 1987 saying there “quelques” basic tastes, at a time when the man in the street knew that there were (at least) four : sweetness, saltiness, bitterness and sourness. Strangely enough, Faure cites only three. He then goes on to say that the Anciens “confusingly” described as “doux” and “piquant”. Confusing indeed. Five exist, the bloke on the Clapham omnibus can cite four, yet Faure (ha ha) cites only three, to say that the Anciens confusingly described with only two terms.
So where does that leave us? What does Faure actually mean?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2015-04-01 20:48:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
interesting article on Faure's book : http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/pharm...
Reference comments
55 mins
Reference:
Sweet and bitter?
"In the West, Aristotle postulated in c. 350 BCE that the two most basic tastes were sweet and bitter. He was one of the first to develop a list of basic tastes.
"Ayurveda, an ancient Indian healing science, has its own tradition of basic tastes, comprising sweet, salty, sour, pungent, bitter & astringent."
Similarly, the Ancient Chinese regarded spiciness as a basic taste."
"Ayurveda, an ancient Indian healing science, has its own tradition of basic tastes, comprising sweet, salty, sour, pungent, bitter & astringent."
Similarly, the Ancient Chinese regarded spiciness as a basic taste."
Reference:
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
Charles Davis
: Snap! Only saw this just after posting mine. / But after some more thought and research I've realised that what Aristotle actually meant was pungent rather than bitter (or so I believe) and I think that's what Faure means by "piquant".
3 mins
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Pungent is certainly more likely than bitter.
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| agree |
Sheri P
: Most FR scholars describe it as "doux/amer"
22 hrs
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Thanks Sheri. I think they are probably wrong to do so.
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Discussion
But I see that the field is still Social Sciences…
Sorry I don't currently have the time to check up on the term, but now that I've pointed you in the right direction, I guess you can now do this for yourself! Try googling taste buds, or taste receptors, flavours or something like that!