Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Portuguese term or phrase:
mesmo a mim, que vivo só de viver
English translation:
even me, who live just by living
Added to glossary by
Oliver Simões
This question was closed without grading. Reason: Answer found elsewhere
Oct 14, 2023 16:45
7 mos ago
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Portuguese term
United States
BA in Transl., MA in ESL, 15 yrs of exp.
Native in: Portuguese 
Works in: English to Portuguese, Portuguese to English, Spanish to Portuguese, and 2 more.
mesmo a mim, que vivo só de viver
Portuguese to English
Other
Poetry & Literature
Portuguese Literature
It's a line from Fernando Pessoa's poetry in the voice of Alberto Caeiro.
"Sim, mesmo a mim, que vivo só de viver,
Invisíveis, vêm ter comigo as mentiras dos homens
Perante as coisas,
Perante as coisas que simplesmente existem.
Que difícil ser próprio e não ver senão o visível!"
I'm not 100% sure how to translate "mesmo a mim" and "vivo só de viver".
Both Google Translate and DeepL translated "vivo só de viver" as "I live just to live". DeepL included "I live just by living" as an alternative translation. Clearly, there is a difference between "viver para viver" (live to live) and "viver de viver" (live from living?), which I really don't know what it means. I found only one instance of "live from living", in a poem translated from French:
"Living upon a never quenched thirst,
Tree in the soul whose living roots are flesh
Who lives from living in the quick of life..." (Paul Valéry)
Note: I couldn't find "vis de vivre" or "vis juste de vivre" in French, but I did find another poem by Valéry in which he used the preposition "de": "Le vent se lève, il faut tenter de vivre", translated as "The wind is rising, we must try to live". In this particular case, the translation seems right.
I discard "live by living" because it's not the correct translation either. It's akin to "vivo vivendo" or "vivo através do viver". So the question remains, "live just to live" or "live just from living"? I'm leaning toward the latter.
As far as "mesmo a mim", GT output "even I". Again, this sounds like a mistranslation. "Even I, who live just from living..." So what? There is no sentence continuity that justifies this translation. On the other hand, "even me" makes it seem like it's an ungrammatical subject of "who live just from living" when it's not. What a dilemma! In "normal" speech, the three lines would read as:
Sim, as mentiras invisíveis dos homens perante as coisas vêm ter comigo, mesmo a mim, que vivo só de viver.
ir ter com: procurar (Priberam)
I thought of "even me". Something like this:
Yes, even me, who live just from living,
Invisible, the lies of men before reality…
Come to seek me,
Before reality that merely exists.
How hard to be oneself and not see but the visible!
As far as the last line is concerned, I was undecided between "but the visible" and "but that which is visible". I chose the former because it's more concise, although the latter sounds more clear. Any comments on this would be greatly appreciated, even though it's not question-related.
"Sim, mesmo a mim, que vivo só de viver,
Invisíveis, vêm ter comigo as mentiras dos homens
Perante as coisas,
Perante as coisas que simplesmente existem.
Que difícil ser próprio e não ver senão o visível!"
I'm not 100% sure how to translate "mesmo a mim" and "vivo só de viver".
Both Google Translate and DeepL translated "vivo só de viver" as "I live just to live". DeepL included "I live just by living" as an alternative translation. Clearly, there is a difference between "viver para viver" (live to live) and "viver de viver" (live from living?), which I really don't know what it means. I found only one instance of "live from living", in a poem translated from French:
"Living upon a never quenched thirst,
Tree in the soul whose living roots are flesh
Who lives from living in the quick of life..." (Paul Valéry)
Note: I couldn't find "vis de vivre" or "vis juste de vivre" in French, but I did find another poem by Valéry in which he used the preposition "de": "Le vent se lève, il faut tenter de vivre", translated as "The wind is rising, we must try to live". In this particular case, the translation seems right.
I discard "live by living" because it's not the correct translation either. It's akin to "vivo vivendo" or "vivo através do viver". So the question remains, "live just to live" or "live just from living"? I'm leaning toward the latter.
As far as "mesmo a mim", GT output "even I". Again, this sounds like a mistranslation. "Even I, who live just from living..." So what? There is no sentence continuity that justifies this translation. On the other hand, "even me" makes it seem like it's an ungrammatical subject of "who live just from living" when it's not. What a dilemma! In "normal" speech, the three lines would read as:
Sim, as mentiras invisíveis dos homens perante as coisas vêm ter comigo, mesmo a mim, que vivo só de viver.
ir ter com: procurar (Priberam)
I thought of "even me". Something like this:
Yes, even me, who live just from living,
Invisible, the lies of men before reality…
Come to seek me,
Before reality that merely exists.
How hard to be oneself and not see but the visible!
As far as the last line is concerned, I was undecided between "but the visible" and "but that which is visible". I chose the former because it's more concise, although the latter sounds more clear. Any comments on this would be greatly appreciated, even though it's not question-related.
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 | even speaking for myself who lives just for a living |
Adrian MM.
|
Change log
Oct 15, 2023 04:41: Oliver Simões changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/2407412">Oliver Simões's</a> old entry - "mesmo a mim, que vivo só de viver"" to ""even me, who live just by living""
Oct 15, 2023 04:41: Oliver Simões Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
2 hrs
Adrian MM.
Austria
Austria
Native in English
Austria
Retd.T&I, Barrister & Austro-Advokat
Native in: English (Variants: Scottish, British) 
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 5 more.
even speaking for myself who lives just for a living
Syntax , grammar and punctuation are wrong in the translations quoted: it's I who *lives* and there is no bounding by a comma.
Otherwise, we could argue about rhyming and non-rhyming poetry translation strategies - even in languages I know - until the 'cows come home'.
Even as a published schoolboy poet myself (4 poems in an anthology of Regency Press, London and New York, 1968), constantly denied by an unpublished ProZ regular, I don't bleive it is necessary to be a poet/ess to translate poetry. Cut to my ex-university lecturer in German who has produced rhyming poems in English for literary and musical works: 'Nine of the twelve English texts have a named poet or translator. In 1784 ... Verse translation Derek McCulloch ©2009'
Otherwise, we could argue about rhyming and non-rhyming poetry translation strategies - even in languages I know - until the 'cows come home'.
Even as a published schoolboy poet myself (4 poems in an anthology of Regency Press, London and New York, 1968), constantly denied by an unpublished ProZ regular, I don't bleive it is necessary to be a poet/ess to translate poetry. Cut to my ex-university lecturer in German who has produced rhyming poems in English for literary and musical works: 'Nine of the twelve English texts have a named poet or translator. In 1784 ... Verse translation Derek McCulloch ©2009'
Note from asker:
| Adrian, first of all, there is no "eu" (I) in the original. It's not the subject, as shown in my reordering of those three lines. How come there is "no bounding by a comma"is present in the original? Now commenting on your translation: The "speaking for myself" part sounds like a cliché that Pessoa would never use. At least, I've never seen it in any of the poems or prose of his that I've read to this day. Diverging from the original poetic structure doesn't sound like a good idea, either. And the meaning has to be preserved as much as possible. You changed the meaning in the part that says "just for a living". He's not talking about "a living" but "living", period. Thank you, anyway. |
| Correction: How come "there is no bounding by a comma" if a comma is clearly present in the original? Actually two commas, one before and one after "mesmo a mim". Regarding your last comment about being a poet or not being a poet, that's irrelevant to my questions. Thanks. |
| There is also an issue with your subject-verb agreement. The grammatical form is "I who live" (not "lives"). Here are a couple of examples: "I (Who Have Nothing)", a song by Tom Jones, "I Who Have Never Known Men" (a novel by Jacqueline Harpman). |
Reference comments
1 hr
Reference:
see
https://gravitando.wordpress.com/tag/fernando-pessoa/
Yes, even I, who live only to live,
Invisible, they come to meet me,
Men’s lies in the face of things,
In the face of things that simply exist.
How difficult to be yourself and see only what you can!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs (2023-10-15 09:32:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
BTW
even me, who liveS
if you are going to use your version
Yes, even I, who live only to live,
Invisible, they come to meet me,
Men’s lies in the face of things,
In the face of things that simply exist.
How difficult to be yourself and see only what you can!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs (2023-10-15 09:32:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
BTW
even me, who liveS
if you are going to use your version
Note from asker:
| Thank you. I don't think "live only to live" is the right translation, as explained in my question. There is a huge difference between "viver de" and "viver para". The translator changed the meaning to "viver para", which is not what the poem says. What the translator made into subject ("I") is not a subject in the poem. Actually, it's connected to the object of the sentence, as my rewording of the poem shows. Thank you, anyway. |
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
Eduardo Amparo
10 mins
|
| agree |
Andrew Bramhall
: "to live only for a living" is a total distortion of the meaning, as it implies you are earning money just for being alive, which is a complete nonsense.
14 hrs
|
Discussion
Yes, even me,* who live just by living,
Invisible, the lies of men before reality…
Come searching for me,
Before reality that simply exists.
How difficult to be oneself and not see but the visible!
* Me is the object rather than a seeming ungrammatical subject. In direct word order, the full sentence would read: Invisible, the lies of men before reality come searching for me, even me, who live just by living. (TN)
"Before"(not "in the face of") is the correct translation of "perante". Example: The defendant lied before the judge. (O réu mentiu perante o juiz.) "In the face of the judge" would sound rather strange.
Why "just by living"? Compare these translations:
"It is said that everyone lives by selling something." (Diz-se que todos vivem de vender alguma coisa.)
"[T]eachers live by selling knowledge." (Os professores vivem de vender conhecimento.)
"[P]hilosophers live by selling wisdom." (Os filósofos vivem de vender sabedoria.)
Therefore: Caeiro lives just by living. (Caeiro vive só de viver.)
Hopefully, this will pass the plagiarism test. :-)
Thank you all for your comments.
The idea of translating poetry is that you would take the idea and render it in a similar way as though you were a poet, rather than a parrot.
In terms of the expression itself, it needs to make sense in the context. The reason why this poem, and the phrasing it contains, has obviously taken its notable place in the world of Portuguese literature, is probably due to the writers awesome ability to place his ideas within a stream of language, which is what you need to do, recreating the idea from new, but in the same meaningful way - rather than look for fixed expressions or specially designed phrasing that other people have used.