Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
en formation initiale
English translation:
of higher education
Added to glossary by
Cassandra Delacote
Dec 12, 2017 08:01
6 yrs ago
55 viewers *
French term
en formation initiale
French to English
Medical
Education / Pedagogy
Osteopathy
I am aware that this question has already been posted on Kudoz, but I cannot find the specific answer I need.
Layla de Chabot made this comment (previous post)
Je suis surprise que certains d'entre vous aient pu envisager le terme "formation" sans le mot "initiale" à côté.
Comme indiqué dans ce lien : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_initiale
"La formation initiale désigne la première formation obtenue au terme d'un cycle d'étude. Elle s'oppose à la formation continue."
Il s'agit bien d'une cycle complet d'études, qui en toute logique mène à un diplôme.
Autre définition donnée ici : "La Formation Initiale est la poursuite d'études universitaires classiques après l'obtention du baccalauréat."
http://www.iut-sceaux.u-psud.fr/fr/formations2/formation_ini..."
I understand from this that "formation initiale" is not "initial training" but the completion of a complete course of study.
However, I am translating a diploma and this is the sentence:
"Après validation des Unités d'enseignement établies par le décret et l’arrêté du 25 mars 2007 (n° 2007-437). ce diplôme est *délivré, en formation initiale,* à:"
I would like to point out that this diploma is issued after 5 full years of study, and enables the degree holder to practice osteopathy, without further studies being required.
If anyone out there can come up with the correct translation for this term (that fits into the sentence), I would really be grateful
Layla de Chabot made this comment (previous post)
Je suis surprise que certains d'entre vous aient pu envisager le terme "formation" sans le mot "initiale" à côté.
Comme indiqué dans ce lien : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_initiale
"La formation initiale désigne la première formation obtenue au terme d'un cycle d'étude. Elle s'oppose à la formation continue."
Il s'agit bien d'une cycle complet d'études, qui en toute logique mène à un diplôme.
Autre définition donnée ici : "La Formation Initiale est la poursuite d'études universitaires classiques après l'obtention du baccalauréat."
http://www.iut-sceaux.u-psud.fr/fr/formations2/formation_ini..."
I understand from this that "formation initiale" is not "initial training" but the completion of a complete course of study.
However, I am translating a diploma and this is the sentence:
"Après validation des Unités d'enseignement établies par le décret et l’arrêté du 25 mars 2007 (n° 2007-437). ce diplôme est *délivré, en formation initiale,* à:"
I would like to point out that this diploma is issued after 5 full years of study, and enables the degree holder to practice osteopathy, without further studies being required.
If anyone out there can come up with the correct translation for this term (that fits into the sentence), I would really be grateful
Proposed translations
(English)
| 5 +1 | of higher education |
Karine LE MOIGNE
|
| 4 +1 | initial/basic training |
narasimha (X)
|
| 4 +1 | as a first professional degree |
Herbmione Granger
|
Proposed translations
+1
8 mins
Karine LE MOIGNE
France
France
Native in French
Specializes in field
France
Ideas are as important as words
Native in: French
Works in: English to French, French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
8
Selected
of higher education
Dans le cas où cette formation initiale se fait post-bac (et c'est bien le cas ici), on peut traduire ce terme par "enseignement supérieur", "higher education".
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Note added at 14 mins (2017-12-12 08:16:22 GMT)
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I would rather say "higher education degree"
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Note added at 14 mins (2017-12-12 08:16:22 GMT)
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I would rather say "higher education degree"
Note from asker:
| Thank you again Karine! But does the sentence sound right in English? This degree in higher education is conferred upon xx? It sounds a bit odd to me |
| yes indeed, thank you |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
katsy
: I would agree with "higher education degree". "Formation continue" may be basic qualification or more; the difference being that it is acquired during professional activity.
9 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you for this answer which is the one I went with although the other answers were also good!"
+1
1 hr
initial/basic training
This basic training is absolutely necessary after a degree is obtained. This training is equivalent to training on the job similar to internship after completing the Doctor's degree.
Extract from Le Grande Dictionnaire
Le terme formation initiale est surtout employé pour marquer l'opposition avec le terme formation continue qu'on emploiera lorsque l'adulte, déjà engagé dans la vie professionnelle, désirera mettre à jour ou élargir ses connaissances, ses habiletés.
On peut acquérir une formation initiale à l'enseignement secondaire (formation professionnelle), collégial (formation technique) ou universitaire.
La formation initiale est habituellement dispensée en continu avant l'insertion dans la vie active. Toutefois, lorsqu'un adulte désire acquérir ou compléter une formation initiale non conduite à terme, on emploie parfois le terme formation initiale différée ou sa forme abrégée formation différée afin de souligner que l'acquisition d'une première formation peut être reportée à un autre moment de la vie.
En formation professionnelle, la formation initiale comprend généralement une formation générale suivie d'une formation spécialisée.
La formation générale, qui pourvoit aux connaissances nécessaires mais non directement applicables à un métier ou à une profession, n'est pas considérée comme une formation initiale. [-]
Extract from Le Grande Dictionnaire
Le terme formation initiale est surtout employé pour marquer l'opposition avec le terme formation continue qu'on emploiera lorsque l'adulte, déjà engagé dans la vie professionnelle, désirera mettre à jour ou élargir ses connaissances, ses habiletés.
On peut acquérir une formation initiale à l'enseignement secondaire (formation professionnelle), collégial (formation technique) ou universitaire.
La formation initiale est habituellement dispensée en continu avant l'insertion dans la vie active. Toutefois, lorsqu'un adulte désire acquérir ou compléter une formation initiale non conduite à terme, on emploie parfois le terme formation initiale différée ou sa forme abrégée formation différée afin de souligner que l'acquisition d'une première formation peut être reportée à un autre moment de la vie.
En formation professionnelle, la formation initiale comprend généralement une formation générale suivie d'une formation spécialisée.
La formation générale, qui pourvoit aux connaissances nécessaires mais non directement applicables à un métier ou à une profession, n'est pas considérée comme une formation initiale. [-]
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Nikita Asrani
4 hrs
|
|
Thank you, Nikita
|
|
| neutral |
katsy
: 'formation initiale' IS (amongst other possible things) the initial degree obtained. It is different from "in-service training" (formation continue). It is often theoretical training, but not necessarily. And cannot be distinguished from the degree
8 hrs
|
| neutral |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: The definition is correct, but the explanation is a litle fuzzy. Katsy puts her finger on the quirky interpretations to be inferred for te French system.
8 hrs
|
+1
3 hrs
Herbmione Granger
Germany
Germany
Native in English
Germany
An American scholar based in Germany
Native in: English (Variant: US) 
Works in: French to English, German to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
4
as a first professional degree
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_degree
A professional degree, formerly known in the US as a first professional degree, is a degree that prepares someone to work in a particular profession, often meeting the academic requirements for licensure or accreditation.[1][2][3][4] Professional degrees may be either graduate or undergraduate entry, depending on the profession concerned and the country, and may be classified as bachelor's, master's or doctoral degrees...
The use of the term "first-professional" was discontinued by the Department of Education as of 2010-11, when new post-baccalaureate award categories were introduced.[30] Prior to this, first-professional degrees were awarded in the following ten fields:
... Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.)
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Note added at 9 hrs (2017-12-12 17:57:57 GMT)
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"First-professional degree" is not a term used in the US anymore, but I think the meaning is clear. You could use just "professional degree," but it should contrast with professional development degrees.
From the Wikipedia article: The U.S. Department of Education defines these as: "A first-professional degree was an award that required completion of a program that met all of the following criteria: (1) completion of the academic requirements to begin practice in the profession; (2) at least 2 years of college work prior to entering the program; and (3) a total of at least 6 academic years of college work to complete the degree program, including prior required college work plus the length of the professional program itself.
This is an outdated definition set by the US DoEd, and other countries, and maybe even universities, have different criteria for obtaining a professional degree.
A professional degree, formerly known in the US as a first professional degree, is a degree that prepares someone to work in a particular profession, often meeting the academic requirements for licensure or accreditation.[1][2][3][4] Professional degrees may be either graduate or undergraduate entry, depending on the profession concerned and the country, and may be classified as bachelor's, master's or doctoral degrees...
The use of the term "first-professional" was discontinued by the Department of Education as of 2010-11, when new post-baccalaureate award categories were introduced.[30] Prior to this, first-professional degrees were awarded in the following ten fields:
... Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.)
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Note added at 9 hrs (2017-12-12 17:57:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
"First-professional degree" is not a term used in the US anymore, but I think the meaning is clear. You could use just "professional degree," but it should contrast with professional development degrees.
From the Wikipedia article: The U.S. Department of Education defines these as: "A first-professional degree was an award that required completion of a program that met all of the following criteria: (1) completion of the academic requirements to begin practice in the profession; (2) at least 2 years of college work prior to entering the program; and (3) a total of at least 6 academic years of college work to complete the degree program, including prior required college work plus the length of the professional program itself.
This is an outdated definition set by the US DoEd, and other countries, and maybe even universities, have different criteria for obtaining a professional degree.
Note from asker:
| First Professional Degrees Professional degrees are awarded upon completion of programs of study that prepare individuals to work in certain professions such as law, medicine, or architecture. It generally takes two or more years beyond a Bachelor's degree to complete. Though the degree may contain the term doctor, a professional degree is the initial degree awarded in that area. Higher degrees may be available, including Masters degrees and Ph.D.s. There are several types of First Professional degrees: • Dentistry (D.D.S. or D.M.D.) • Law (L.L.B. or J.D.) • Medicine (M.D.) • Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.) • Pharmacy (Pharm. D.) This extract mentions that the first professional degree takes about 2 years, so although I really like this answer, I am afraid it could not apply to a diploma in osteopathy awarded after following a 5 year curriculum. What do you think? |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: THis actually works in the case of osteopathy, as it would for psychology, as both M2 degrees award a professional title. In the UK thoug, a "first degree" means bacherlor's; in the UK a "pro" degree can be bachelor's or master's. See discussion posts.
6 hrs
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Thanks, Nikki :)
|
Reference comments
8 hrs
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Native in English
Specializes in field
Psychologist, Court-certified legal
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
148
Reference:
formation initiale - vs formation continue
Adminstrative distinction, en important one.
You can undertake a great many courses in higher education with a student status of one studying a course as a "formation initiale" or as a "formation continue". The choice you make will open up a certain number of advantages. In some cases, your individual status will mean you have no choice about which you have to adopt.
it is not a question of it being basic training, for example. I am currently doing a masters, that I could have done as a "formation continue", but I ticked the "formation initiale" box as it was simply cheaper for me to do it that way.
I'll track down some sources and be back shortlly.
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Note added at 8 hrs (2017-12-12 16:58:04 GMT)
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shortLy
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Note added at 9 hrs (2017-12-12 17:24:18 GMT)
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An example of those working in a public hospital environment, which, although it is rather a specific milieu, does give the basic explanation:
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F3033
Here is a document from Pôle Emploi, the national job agency: http://www.pole-emploi.fr/file/mmlelement/pj/0d/79/75/90/gui...
https://information-documentation.fr/scolarite/regimes-et-mo...
"
l existe deux régimes de formation, la formation initiale et la formation continue, ceux-ci correspondent à un statut d'inscription car quel que soit le régime de l'étudiant les cours seront identiques. Toutefois les étudiants inscrits en formation continue font l'objet d'un suivi particulier et ont par ailleurs l'obligation d'être assidu à tous les cours et regroupements.
Selon le courrier de la Direction Générale pour l'Enseignement Supérieur et l'Insertion Professionnelle (Référence : Note DGESIP B2 n°2013-0260 du 26 juillet 2013) ayant pour objet : "précisions sur l'application des textes réglementaires concernant les conventions d'enseignement et le régime d'inscription de personnes souhaitant reprendre des études dans l'enseignement supérieur", il savère que :
"D'un point de vue réglementaire [...] ni l'âge limite de 28 ans au-delà duquel les individus ne peuvent bénéficier de la sécurité sociale étudiante, ni l'interruption d'au moins deux ans des études ne constituent des critères réglementaires autorisant l'inscription d'une personne en formation continue. Si l'ancienne loi Edgar Faure du 12 novembre 1968 comportait un article définissant le public de formation continue universitaire qui se fondalt sur une interruption d'études de plus de trois ans, cette dispositiona été abrogéeet n'a pas été remplacée.
La distinction principale entre les régimes de formation initiale et continue résulte donc bien du critère de conventionnement, spécifique à la formation continue, qui se traduit par la signature d'une convention ou d'un contrat de formation professionnelle (on parlera de convention dans le cas d'une personne morale de droit public ou privé et de contrat à titre individuel lorsqu'il s'agit d'une personne physique) entre la personne et l'établissement formateur tel qu'il est décrit dans les articles L 6353-1 à L. 6353-7 du codedu travail et l'article D. 714-62du code de l'éducation. Ce critère détermine le statut de « stagiaire de la formation continue ».
Le financement de la formation continue peut être pris en charge par un tiers financeur, public comme Pôle Emploi ou un Conseil régional, ou privé comme une entreprise, un OPCA ou un OPACIF."
La formation continue concerne donc les salariés en CIF (Congé Individuel de Formation), en DIF (Droit Individuel à la Formation), en plan de formation ou en Contrat de Professionnalisation, les demandeurs d’emploi (indemnisés ou non par Pôle Emploi), les bénéficiaires du RSA, etc.
Si vous relevez de la formation continue, votre interlocuteur est le Service Universitaire de la Formation COntinue (SUFCO) lequel assure le suivi des adultes en reprise d’études au cours de leur année universitaire. Pour tout renseignement vous pouvez contacter le SUFCO :..;"
This is from Montpellier, but the rules are the same whatever the uni.
I was not being financed through this by the Pôle Emploi as I have a professional activity (translation/interpreting) and although I might be expected to be enrolled with the "formation continue" system, it costs a few thousand euros. The main thing is that because I have a professional activity, I have social security cover and so I don't have to worry about entitlement/non-entitlement to the sécurité sociale étudiante if I enrol with the "formation initiale" status... so my annual fees are around 250 euros, which for a master's degree is practically free.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2017-12-12 17:27:52 GMT)
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Final note.
So, although the general distinction is that a "formation initiale" means what it says, and it can apply from the first year of a licence right through to a PhD, I believe, at various stages in higher education, you can enrol via the "formation continue" (= continuing education") status, even if you already have a qualification of the same level. If you are enrolling as an employee and your employee is paying for the course, then the chances are you have to enrol with the "formation continue" status and your employer will pay a much higher price.
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Note added at 9 hrs (2017-12-12 17:29:58 GMT)
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Final not (bis): the main point, which i've not actually stated, is that officially a "formation continue" is with a professional objetive, but if, as am I, you can enrol legitmately satisfying all the requirements under the "foramtion initiale" rules, then it will cost you next to nothing.
You can undertake a great many courses in higher education with a student status of one studying a course as a "formation initiale" or as a "formation continue". The choice you make will open up a certain number of advantages. In some cases, your individual status will mean you have no choice about which you have to adopt.
it is not a question of it being basic training, for example. I am currently doing a masters, that I could have done as a "formation continue", but I ticked the "formation initiale" box as it was simply cheaper for me to do it that way.
I'll track down some sources and be back shortlly.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2017-12-12 16:58:04 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
shortLy
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2017-12-12 17:24:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
An example of those working in a public hospital environment, which, although it is rather a specific milieu, does give the basic explanation:
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F3033
Here is a document from Pôle Emploi, the national job agency: http://www.pole-emploi.fr/file/mmlelement/pj/0d/79/75/90/gui...
https://information-documentation.fr/scolarite/regimes-et-mo...
"
l existe deux régimes de formation, la formation initiale et la formation continue, ceux-ci correspondent à un statut d'inscription car quel que soit le régime de l'étudiant les cours seront identiques. Toutefois les étudiants inscrits en formation continue font l'objet d'un suivi particulier et ont par ailleurs l'obligation d'être assidu à tous les cours et regroupements.
Selon le courrier de la Direction Générale pour l'Enseignement Supérieur et l'Insertion Professionnelle (Référence : Note DGESIP B2 n°2013-0260 du 26 juillet 2013) ayant pour objet : "précisions sur l'application des textes réglementaires concernant les conventions d'enseignement et le régime d'inscription de personnes souhaitant reprendre des études dans l'enseignement supérieur", il savère que :
"D'un point de vue réglementaire [...] ni l'âge limite de 28 ans au-delà duquel les individus ne peuvent bénéficier de la sécurité sociale étudiante, ni l'interruption d'au moins deux ans des études ne constituent des critères réglementaires autorisant l'inscription d'une personne en formation continue. Si l'ancienne loi Edgar Faure du 12 novembre 1968 comportait un article définissant le public de formation continue universitaire qui se fondalt sur une interruption d'études de plus de trois ans, cette dispositiona été abrogéeet n'a pas été remplacée.
La distinction principale entre les régimes de formation initiale et continue résulte donc bien du critère de conventionnement, spécifique à la formation continue, qui se traduit par la signature d'une convention ou d'un contrat de formation professionnelle (on parlera de convention dans le cas d'une personne morale de droit public ou privé et de contrat à titre individuel lorsqu'il s'agit d'une personne physique) entre la personne et l'établissement formateur tel qu'il est décrit dans les articles L 6353-1 à L. 6353-7 du codedu travail et l'article D. 714-62du code de l'éducation. Ce critère détermine le statut de « stagiaire de la formation continue ».
Le financement de la formation continue peut être pris en charge par un tiers financeur, public comme Pôle Emploi ou un Conseil régional, ou privé comme une entreprise, un OPCA ou un OPACIF."
La formation continue concerne donc les salariés en CIF (Congé Individuel de Formation), en DIF (Droit Individuel à la Formation), en plan de formation ou en Contrat de Professionnalisation, les demandeurs d’emploi (indemnisés ou non par Pôle Emploi), les bénéficiaires du RSA, etc.
Si vous relevez de la formation continue, votre interlocuteur est le Service Universitaire de la Formation COntinue (SUFCO) lequel assure le suivi des adultes en reprise d’études au cours de leur année universitaire. Pour tout renseignement vous pouvez contacter le SUFCO :..;"
This is from Montpellier, but the rules are the same whatever the uni.
I was not being financed through this by the Pôle Emploi as I have a professional activity (translation/interpreting) and although I might be expected to be enrolled with the "formation continue" system, it costs a few thousand euros. The main thing is that because I have a professional activity, I have social security cover and so I don't have to worry about entitlement/non-entitlement to the sécurité sociale étudiante if I enrol with the "formation initiale" status... so my annual fees are around 250 euros, which for a master's degree is practically free.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2017-12-12 17:27:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Final note.
So, although the general distinction is that a "formation initiale" means what it says, and it can apply from the first year of a licence right through to a PhD, I believe, at various stages in higher education, you can enrol via the "formation continue" (= continuing education") status, even if you already have a qualification of the same level. If you are enrolling as an employee and your employee is paying for the course, then the chances are you have to enrol with the "formation continue" status and your employer will pay a much higher price.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2017-12-12 17:29:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Final not (bis): the main point, which i've not actually stated, is that officially a "formation continue" is with a professional objetive, but if, as am I, you can enrol legitmately satisfying all the requirements under the "foramtion initiale" rules, then it will cost you next to nothing.
Note from asker:
| Thank you I will wait for your suggested translation. I thought the suggestion of herbalchemist was very good, though.. |
| You think it should just be left out altogether then? Why is that? |
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
Herbmione Granger
: This is interesting. I was wondering whether "formation initiale" should be included at all in the translation.
1 hr
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10 hrs
Reference:
formation continue/formation initiale
I do not wish in any way to contradict what Nikki has said. I just wished to add the following (and if Nikki considers she has already said this, my apologies for not cottoning on!)
here is another referencehttp://www.sufco.fr/formation-continue-vs-formation-initiale...
In my experience (OK a few years ago, as an English teacher for adults at a "boîte de langues!), formation initiale (as indicated in my reference) is for young students, often from age 18onwards. Foramtion continue can actually give you the same diploma, but in fact you are working at the same time.
The temptation is indeed to talk of initial training for formation initiale, but you can in fact obtain the same qualification via formation continue (which I have always translated by 'in-service training"). So, to take the example of social work : you can do a university degree (usually, of necessity licence level) either as a student (aged 18-21), or you can be employed by a social services agency which will pay for you to be trained.
The difference being (sorry if I am being repetitive - either with regard to myself or to Nikki) that in formation initiale you are a full-time student, in formation continue, you are an employee, with a salary, and your employer will pay all or a large part of your fees. So to repeat myself knowingly, with formation continue, you are already working, and your employer pays.
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Note added at 10 hrs (2017-12-12 18:15:20 GMT)
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Hello Cassandra! Thanks for your comment. I would tend to go with Karine's suggestion "higher education degree" which, at least in UK parlance, indicates university study at ages 18-21 (as opposed to "further education", which refers to life-long education); in your context you might wish to go for "higher education diploma". I am not sure that a separate suggestion from me would 'avancer le schmilblic"!
here is another referencehttp://www.sufco.fr/formation-continue-vs-formation-initiale...
In my experience (OK a few years ago, as an English teacher for adults at a "boîte de langues!), formation initiale (as indicated in my reference) is for young students, often from age 18onwards. Foramtion continue can actually give you the same diploma, but in fact you are working at the same time.
The temptation is indeed to talk of initial training for formation initiale, but you can in fact obtain the same qualification via formation continue (which I have always translated by 'in-service training"). So, to take the example of social work : you can do a university degree (usually, of necessity licence level) either as a student (aged 18-21), or you can be employed by a social services agency which will pay for you to be trained.
The difference being (sorry if I am being repetitive - either with regard to myself or to Nikki) that in formation initiale you are a full-time student, in formation continue, you are an employee, with a salary, and your employer will pay all or a large part of your fees. So to repeat myself knowingly, with formation continue, you are already working, and your employer pays.
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Note added at 10 hrs (2017-12-12 18:15:20 GMT)
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Hello Cassandra! Thanks for your comment. I would tend to go with Karine's suggestion "higher education degree" which, at least in UK parlance, indicates university study at ages 18-21 (as opposed to "further education", which refers to life-long education); in your context you might wish to go for "higher education diploma". I am not sure that a separate suggestion from me would 'avancer le schmilblic"!
Note from asker:
| Thank you for this comment. Would you not be prepared to submit a suggested translation with this info in mind? |
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
Herbmione Granger
: This is also helpful. I was thinking "formation continue" was similar to "professional development": https://www.csudh.edu/ceie/programs-schedules/career-pro-dev...
16 mins
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Thanks herbalchemist.... I am having to ponder on a possible translation. The problem is not "what" (diploma) but "how" ( method/conditions of study)
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Discussion
Strictly speaking though, a "first degree" in the UK, I emphasise, is a bachelor's degree (licence, bac+3) and a master's is a post-graduate degree (be it an M1, bac+4, or a M2, bac+5).
In my ref post you will see that the desecription "formation initiale" can apply to any level of higher education qualification. It is essentially an adminsitrative definition with financial implications. In the case of osteopathy studies, it means the person has gone through the programme of study, even though it awards a professional title, as an "initial" programme of study. It has specific French meaning. It is easier to say what it is not than what it is.
This question is interseting as it shows all the difficulty of the art of translating displomas and qualifications. At the end of the day, the diploma is exavtly the same whether done as "initiale" or "continue", so it is almost irrelevant. The rest of the CV indicates how it was done in terms of an indiv's educ/career, etc. HC's answer works well here, but not everywhere.