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Indice E/VS
hypothèses conservatives retenues

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

se manifester

English translation:

give / any / notice; to comment; make known its position

Added to glossary by Adrian MM.
Sep 22, 2020 11:09
3 yrs ago
44 viewers *
French term

se manifester

French to English Law/Patents Law: Contract(s)
Document called "Lease + Termination (Phase 1) ... " - about leasing some port infrastructure and various complicated possible extension projects.

"Le bail prendra effet, de convention expresse :

soit à compter du 1er avril 2021 dans l’hypothèse où le PRENEUR ne souhaiterait pas étendre l’objet du bail en y adjoignant de nouvelles constructions dans le cadre de la phase 2 ou s’il ne s’était pas manifesté à ce sujet auprès du BAILLEUR avant le 31 mars 2021,"

"1ère hypothèse : si le PRENEUR et/ou le PRENEUR INITIAL ne souhaitent pas réaliser la phase 2 de l’opération ou si aucun des deux ne s’est manifesté avant le 31 mars 2021 : la résiliation de bail entre le BAILLEUR et le PRENEUR INITIAL prévue en première partie des présentes, et le bail entre le BAILLEUR et le PRENEUR prévu en 2ème partie des présentes, entreront en vigueur simultanément le 1er avril 2021."

"En tout état de cause, chacune des PARTIES devra se manifester expressément dans le délai prévu pour faire part à l'autre partie de la réalisation ou de la non réalisation d'une condition suspensive."

"A défaut de s'être manifestée dans le délai prévu, la partie concernée ne pourra plus se prévaloir de la non réalisation d'une condition suspensive, laquelle sera considérée comme réalisée."

For the record, manifester is used in a more normal way elsewhere, e.g.:

"Si le PRENEUR manifeste son intention de réaliser lui-même les travaux de remise en état, il devra s’engager à les faire exécuter avant la restitution des lieux par des entreprises de son choix agréées par le BAILLEUR."

For se manifester my ordinary dictionary suggests "show itself" or "come forward". In the course of research I found this: http://stella.atilf.fr/Dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/visusel.exe?11... ... many definitions but nothing which fits the bill.

One possibility, conjectured by me from context for the first two excerpts, is "make known its intentions", but I've found no evidence that this verb means this, and it could potentially be something different, such as "respond or act in some way".

And in fact "make known its intentions" doesn't really fit with excerpt 3 above, where it appears simply to mean "show itself" or "pop up". In excerpt 4 it could be something like "reply".

It is perfectly possible that one English translation solution won't work with all four cases. It's above all the first two excerpts which I'm struggling with.
Proposed translations (English)
4 give / any / notice (of its desire)
2 +6 communicate (his/her intention)
3 announce/state/declare
3 to bring / put forward
4 -1 to make someoneknown...
Change log

Sep 26, 2020 13:46: Adrian MM. Created KOG entry

Discussion

ph-b (X) Sep 30, 2020:
That is correct and so I stand corrected. But your initial question was about se manifester, and Adrian himself speaks of "intentions" in the comment part of his answer. The reason why I still prefer Marco's is that se manifester, while being an elegant choice of words, is not as precise as notifier/"give notice". Anyway, the answer as entered into the glossary now includes "make known its position". Not for me to discuss the choice of words in English, as I like to say, but that is how I understand se manifester (à ce sujet) in this text.
Mpoma (asker) Sep 30, 2020:
@ph-b Afraid not: that's a misreading on your part.

Souhaiter is referring to the question of whether the subject of the lease is to be extended as part of phase 2.

dans l’hypothèse où... continues with ... ou s’il ne s’était pas manifesté à ce sujet.... It very clearly references the case where the lessee has not expressed a wish.

Perhaps you are a littled confused by the soit at the beginning of the phrase. This is not "either" as in "either ... or" (there is no counterpart soit, and you can't write soit ... ou ... ).

Instead soit is a legal expression, which we translate as "to wit" (meaning "in other words").
ph-b (X) Sep 27, 2020:
Just for the record, since the question is closed, souhaiter refers to whether or not the party wishes Phase 2 to take place, whereas se manifester à ce sujet refers to the effective date (à ce sujet = date d'effet, cf. Le bail prendra effet...). Anyway, you've made up your mind. So be it!
Mpoma (asker) Sep 25, 2020:
@Emmanuella Yes, you're right. I didn't understand that that was the point you were making. Molte grazie.
Emmanuella Sep 25, 2020:
@ Mpoma
Please read my message sent yesterday. Thanks.
Mpoma (asker) Sep 25, 2020:
"wish" is clearly indicated in the ST and... I've just noticed that the verb used in both excerpts 1 and 2 is, indeed, souhaiter! Not avoir l'intention or entendre.

For many purposes, no doubt, "manifest its intention" may be OK, but I'm by now firmly convinced that this particular text is about wishes, not intentions.

Another thought: you can intend to do something but not wish to do it, and you can (less easily) wish to do something but not intend to do it. But the reflexive form used here either a) is non-committal, or b) deliberately refers back to the verb used earlier in the sentence.

The safest translation must be "make known its position".
Mpoma (asker) Sep 25, 2020:
agree to disagree? 1) Neither "position" nor "desire/wish" is the same as "intention". 2) Your new definition (Emploi pronom.) if anything helps corroborate my view, that "intention" is too narrow. 3) I don't "prefer" "desire" to "intention": logic tells me that "intention" is not implicit in se manifester, unless otherwise clearly proven by a dictionary definition.

A desire/wish clearly differs from an intention in the sense that the former necessarily implies the meeting of some other conditions (for example the consent of the other party in this case), whereas an intention has no such implication, but instead a fairly clear implication that the party with the intention has sole power to decide the outcome.

I half suspect here that the confusion is arising here because in both EN and FR "manifest one's intention" is such a set phrase that an assumption is being made that "to manifest" *contains* the idea of "intention". If anything it should convince us of the opposite. To repeat: I see nothing "mystical" in the reflexive form: se manifester is "to show/reveal oneself". That's it. IMHO. Indeed the whole reason I posed the question in the first place.
ph-b (X) Sep 24, 2020:
desire, position and intention Re "a dictionary definition clarifying these matters is really what I need". See previous messages. Or from a different source: MANIFESTER. 1.b) [Le compl. d'obj. désigne une réalité psychol.] α) Faire connaître publiquement, ouvertement... SYNT. Manifester un désir, une exigence, une intention, une opinion, ses idées, sa volonté; manifester clairement, hautement, ouvertement. + 2. Emploi pronom. a) réfl. Donner des signes de sa présence, de son existence. Cf. https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/manifester. In short (apologies for repeating myself): to be present so as to express a..., i.e. "to make oneself heard" in non-legal English. You must have your own reasons to prefer "desire" to "intention"; the source text is no help here. Is "desire" appropriate in a legal document in English? "Position" sounds fine if it's used in legal English, but isn't it synonymous with "intention"? If so, back to square one? Or is that what you meant by "getting circular' yesterday? A "slightly fruitless" exchange perhaps, until you look at se manifester à ce sujet as a whole and accept that se manifester only is used to avoid repetitions afterwards.
Emmanuella Sep 24, 2020:
In the first two phrases you can read the verb 'souhaiter' / desire
Mpoma (asker) Sep 24, 2020:
"made known its desire"? I hesitate to question a professional French-speaker's certainty on this subject, but in fact "desire", as opposed to "intention", seems to fit perfectly well for the first two phrases, so perhaps a more general expression is required, such as "make its position known".

Again, a dictionary definition clarifying these matters is really what I need.
ph-b (X) Sep 23, 2020:
"Getting circular" Quite, if you keep separating à ce sujet from se manifester. The former explains the latter in this context. Must move on to other things now - getting close to dinner time...
ph-b (X) Sep 23, 2020:
"Make up their mind" "I'm not at all clear that 'making up your mind' is part of se manifester" Apologies for choosing the wrong words - I've now edited my previous post.
Mpoma (asker) Sep 23, 2020:
"Make their decision known" Perhaps this is getting a bit circular: the whole thing, precisely, is that I'm not at all clear that "making your decision known" is part of se manifester.

I'm very interested to hear that you, a French native speaker, seem to be pretty sure that this is so. All I can say is that, to repeat, I have not found any definition in any reference source which corroborates this.

If sending a rather prevaricating email could indeed constitute se manifester (because it would constitute "communication"), then if the preneur sent that before 31st March they would be acting in accordance with the terms of the document.
ph-b (X) Sep 23, 2020:
The answer is in the source text "...could that conceivably be se manifester à ce sujet?" I don't think so - they're not making any decision known, they're asking for more time to do so, but better ask a lawyer. In any case, your example doesn't reflect the source text: the preneur has to make their intentions/decision clear about when the lease starts, in other words doit se manifester à ce sujet, before 31st March, 2021 - this is in the source text. That's not the same as giving them a few more days/weeks/months to make up their mind. [EDIT] Replace "make up their mind" with "make their décision known". Apologies for the confusion.
Mpoma (asker) Sep 23, 2020:
@ph-b I didn't mean to imply that you believed "to come forward" had an idea of intention in it. Perhaps I might invite you to re-read what I wrote. Anyway, if I caused offuscation I'm sorry, and it was not my intention.

I do question your assumption/assertion that se manifester à ce sujet necessarily implies an intention. If se manifester merely means "communicate" then this could easily just mean "respond/communicate in some way, whatever that might be, on this subject".

For example, if the preneur sent an email saying "hm, I'm not sure, maybe I'll go along with it ... but maybe not: give me a few more days/weeks/months... ": could that conceivably be se manifester à ce sujet?
ph-b (X) Sep 23, 2020:
Read again I didn't say that "to come forward" means you make your intentions clear. Read again: "It could be understood as "coming forward (in order) to let your intentions be known". That's two steps: 1) to "come forward" (or any better verb) (R&C: se présenter = to appear, to turn up [for a person]) and then 2) make your intentions known. As for "I've yet to see any real reference evidence that se manifester ever brings with it the idea of'showing intentions'", it seems to me you're misreading the source text by omitting to link à ce sujet to se manifester. If you take se manifester à ce sujet as a whole, "let one's intentions known" becomes on ne peut plus évident. To a French native speaker, anyway. And finally, your reading of excerpt 3 disregards the fact that à ce sujet has been omitted in excerpts 2, 3 and 4 for stylistic reasons (see my previous message). Try inserting it and read them again.
Mpoma (asker) Sep 23, 2020:
@ph-b Thanks... but "to come forward" doesn't really seem to imply that you necessarily make known your intentions. As I suggested in my question, excerpts 3 and 4 could just be "pop up" or "answer".

Se révéler clairement dans son existence ou sa nature is a very clear and useful definition, and it is also consistent with the substantive definition of manifester. I've yet to see any real reference evidence that se manifester ever brings with it the idea of "showing intentions".

NB I'm not saying it doesn't, and it would be great to find such a confirmation.

NB2 A problem with excerpt 3, for example, is that it tends to suggests that this "showing of intention" is, in fact, NOT implicit in se manifester: hence the need to explain what must happen when this party se manifeste.
ph-b (X) Sep 23, 2020:
Re: "where you get this from" manifester 1) refers to a person (whether a physical person or a company, etc. is irrelevant) and 2) is used as a reflexive verb in the first four examples. Ergo: V. tr. Rendre manifeste* ; faire ou laisser apparaître.
1a (Sujet n. de personne). Faire connaître de façon manifeste... Manifester sa volonté... but
b V. pron. réfl. (fin XIIe). SE MANIFESTER : se révéler clairement dans son existence ou sa nature. In other words, "to let people know that you exist", “to come forward”, as it were. It could be understood as "coming forward to let your intentions be known", but the first occurrence is different from the next three in that it is followed by à ce sujet, which I understand to mean: "has come forward to let its intentions known re Le bail prendra effet, de convention expresse. The next three don't repeat it, but it is implicit.
Mpoma (asker) Sep 23, 2020:
@Eliza @AllegroTrans I'm interested to see that both of you, whose authority in legal matters is top notch, both seem to consider that this idea I suggested in my question "make known intentions" applies. Could either or both just say where you get this from, I mean regarding the verb (i.e. some definition, authority or reference), rather than just deducing from context (as was all I could do)?

It's just that Marco's answer with the brackets, "communicate (its/his/her intention)", is a bit broad: "to communicate an intention" is not the same as "to communicate". Are we sure an intention is involved in this communication (in the first two excerpts)... or could it simply be "any old communication of some kind"?
John ANTHONY Sep 22, 2020:
Emmanuella Would agree your suggestions are better than my first thoughts...!
Emmanuella Sep 22, 2020:
To express one's intention. / To come forward /
2 nuances

Proposed translations

1 hr
Selected

give / any / notice (of its desire)

What won't work: vouchsafe a reply and, as is a well-known turn of phrase in the ENG & Irish law of criminal evidence: an 'excited utterance'.

> manifeste son intention > give notice of the latter's intention. 'Avow' its intent.

Obiter, the UK Leasehold Enfranchisement Act used to refer to a 'desire notice' given by a long lessee to the lessors, as echoed in the 1997 Regulations and causing much merriment in UK conveyancing, plus Landlord & Tenant, lectures at law school.

Note : it is not notice of 'desires' the title of a French film eludes me at the moment.

Example sentence:

UK The Regs ... shall continue to apply in a case where a notice ... (tenant’s notice of desire to have or claim to be entitled to acquire the freehold or an extended lease) was given before the date these Regs come into force.

Reference:

http://eng.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/898154-hors-détat-de-manifester-sa-volonté.html

http://dioms.thefreedictionary.com/avowed+intent

Something went wrong...
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "I think desires rather than intentions are involved, as the ST uses the verb "souhaiter". Personally I put "make known its position""
39 mins

announce/state/declare

(se) manifester here takes the place of state/declare/announce.
Peer comment(s):
neutral philgoddard : I agree, but the verb needs an object.
55 mins
Something went wrong...
53 mins
French term (edited): manifester (here...)

to bring / put forward

Another idea...!
Peer comment(s):
neutral AllegroTrans : to bring / put forward what exactly?
10 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
52 mins

to make someoneknown...

Just an idea...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 55 mins (2020-09-22 12:04:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

sorry... typo ! to make someone known
Peer comment(s):
disagree B D Finch : Someone?!
2 hrs
you, me, X, Y, Z... "I made myself known as..."
neutral AllegroTrans : Any old person?
10 hrs
Something went wrong...
+6
1 hr

communicate (his/her intention)

This should fit.
Note from asker:
Thanks, seems the best solution.
See slightly fruitless discussion. May I ask why you have put brackets round "his/her/its intention"? Is this because you think it means both, or neither, or sometimes just "communicate" and sometimes "communicate intention"? If "intention" is crucial to the meaning, how do you know? I mean, other than surmising from context, as I did?
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard : Its. These are companies.
13 mins
agree B D Finch : Also, agree with philgoddard's comment.
2 hrs
agree Eliza Hall : Or make its intentions known.
5 hrs
agree AllegroTrans : or give notice of its intentions
10 hrs
agree ph-b (X) : Not for me to comment on your choice of words, but that is certainly what se manifester means in the source text.
1 day 3 hrs
agree SafeTex : I like "notify" but this is fine for me too
2 days 4 hrs
Something went wrong...
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