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p/p
Sep 24, 2018 18:57
5 yrs ago
3 viewers *
French term

être opposée au décompte

French to English Bus/Financial Real Estate
Pour la perception du droit d'enregistrement, seulement, les parties évaluent à XXX € par an, les charges annuelles, en sus du loyer: le preneur reconnaissant que cette évaluation ne saurait, pour les charges, être opposée au décompte tel que prévu par le règlement de copropriété et arrêté par le syndic de l'immeuble.

Does this mean "offset against"?

Thanks!
Proposed translations (English)
4 -1 could not / can not be used to oppose / dispute ...
3 -1 notional breakdown
4 -2 dispute this (provisional) account
2 -1 the two amounts cannot be in conflict with each other - they are and remain as is

Discussion

Nektaria Notaridou (asker) Oct 3, 2018:
Thank you all for contributing to this question. I will lightly step away from grading:-)
Tony M Sep 26, 2018:
@ Daryo Hear, hear! Couldn't agree more!
The source text here is very explicit and makes the situation abundantly clear; I don't think there can be any doubt about the interpretation of the sense, although obviously there might be various formulations possible.
Daryo Sep 26, 2018:
How about r-e-a-d-i-n-g THIS specific ST instead of assuming some hypothetical situations that might be a frequent occurrence but have nothing to do with this ST?

You can "offset" only mutual obligations - but - this "amount of charges annuelles estimated for the purpose of taxation" is only an estimated figure filled in a tax form, it's NOT money that will be due to anyone nor paid to anyone, so there is nothing to "offset".
SafeTex Sep 25, 2018:
@All Hello all

The tenant (preneur) pays xxx Euros, but let' says 100 Euros for my example
Now when he has to pay the bills, he is not going to say "hey I paid 100 Euros so you should take off 500 Euros from my bills. He is more likely to say "hey I paid 100 Euros so you have to take off 100 Euros from the bills.
For that reason, I think "offset" may actually be the best option but in the negative.
i.e cannot be offset against.

On notional breakdown, I understand Olivier's logic but I don't think the "droit d'enregistrement" is a notional breakdown of "les charges", to be adjusted at the end of the year. They seem pretty well unrelated. And anyway, this suggestion would mean reworking entire sentence to such a degree that it is impracticable.

Regards to all

SafeTex
Daryo Sep 25, 2018:
Agree even if you don't know the fine points of "droit d'enregistrement" or "décompte tel que prévu par le règlement de copropriété", BASIC GRAMMAR still applies.


"Pour la perception du droit d'enregistrement, seulement," seems to me clear enough: ONLY for the purpose of paying "le droit d'enregistrement" (some kind of Stamp duty?) => not relevant/not to be used/quoted for any other purpose.

I really cant see how "seulement" could not mean "only"???
Tony M Sep 24, 2018:
@ Asker Not an expert in this field, but I think you'll find it means "cannot be used to contradict..." — it says this calcualted figure is used for one purpose only, so it cannot be used instead of the officially agreed "real" figure with the joint owners and the property agent.

So it's not really "offset against" so much as "set against".

Proposed translations

-1
1 hr

notional breakdown

of the annual service charges applied on top of the rent, which may differ from the actual agreed amount payable;
Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : it's about "presumed" and "real" amounts to pay, no mention of any breakdown, only of an estimated total amount.
22 hrs
A presumed amount is a " notional" amount,and total amounts can be 'broken down' to arrive at a presumed estimate;
Something went wrong...
-2
14 hrs

dispute this (provisional) account

The tenant has acknowledged that he/she cannot dispute a provisional account, which must be paid. It is adjusted later if appropriate.

That's how I understand it.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 hrs (2018-09-25 09:51:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

It's explained in this reference:

Syndics and Copropriétaires in France | SmartExpat
https://smartexpat.com/france/how-to-guides/home/owning-an-a...

The Syndic or Managing Agent is both the manager of the building and the regulator of ... The owner is responsible for paying the service charges due on the ... Based on this estimate, a provisional demand is sent to owners on the first day of ...
Peer comment(s):
disagree Tony M : That's really not what it's all about, C. This means that this 'theoretical' figure cannot be sued to dipsute the ACTUAL figure that has been agreed and must be paid.
8 hrs
I disagree TM; I think it means that the tenant cannot dispute the provisional figure and has to pay it on account, with a (possible) later adjustment to follow; this was the situation when I was a tenant in Luxembourg
disagree Daryo : in this specific text [whatever happens maybe 99.99% of the time elsewhere DOESN'T MATTER HERE] it's about an amount "presumed/estimated" for one purpose only as opposed to the "real/effective" amount to pay.
9 hrs
Nope, it's about a provisional or estimated account which has to be paid, subject to later adjustment (e.g. when the final meter readings are taken); nothing here is "presumed" it's a set procedure
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-1
1 day 1 hr
French term (edited): [montant A] ne saurait ... être opposée au décompte [tel que ...]

could not / can not be used to oppose / dispute ...

(1)
Pour la perception du droit d'enregistrement, seulement, les parties évaluent à XXX € par an, les charges annuelles, en sus du loyer:

ONLY for the purpose of assessing the amount to be taxed by "le droit d'enregistrement", the contribution to common costs [="les charges annuelles"] will be estimated at some annual amount.

(2)
this estimated annual amount is only an estimate for the purpose of paying "le droit d'enregistrement" - if the real effective costs turn out to be more, it will not be possible to claim that this estimated amount is the maximum payable. i.e. the tenant will not be able to dispute / "oppose" the amount of "les charges annuelles" on the ground that they exceed this "amount estimated ONLY for tax purposes".





--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2018-09-25 20:14:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------


le preneur reconnaissant que cette évaluation ne saurait, pour les charges, être opposée [au décompte tel que prévu par le règlement de copropriété et arrêté par le syndic de l\'immeuble].

=

the Tenant(?) acknowledges that this estimated amount can not be [used as] a ground for disputing ....

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 23 hrs (2018-09-26 18:24:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

a precision regarding "les droits d'enregistrement" - it is a tax

Droits d'enregistrement : les ventes d'immeubles

Septembre 2018
Les ventes d'immeubles sont en principe soumises aux droits d'enregistrement, improprement appelés "frais de notaire".

Définition
Notre vidéo
Montant des droits
Allégements

Quand l'acquéreur n'est pas assujetti à la TVA, ce qui est notamment le cas des particuliers, il doit acquitter les droits de mutation :

au taux normal sur les cessions de terrains et d'immeubles anciens,
au taux réduit de 0,715% sur les cessions d'immeubles vendus en l'état futur d'achèvement (VEFA)

Sont soumises à la TVA les cessions d'immeubles neufs vendus en l'état futur d'achèvement (VEFA). Voir Immobilier et TVA

Définition
Exception faite des cas mentionnés ci-dessus, sont soumis aux droits d'enregistrement toutes les transactions à titre onéreux (ventes classiques, mais aussi viager, ventes aux enchères, etc.) portant sur :

tous les types de biens immobiliers (logements, bureaux, terrains, etc.)
les droits d'usufruit et la nue-propriété
et les titres de certaines sociétés immobilières.

Quand la vente porte sur l'usufruit ou la nue-propriété, celle-ci est évaluée selon le barème administratif.

Les droits concernent tous les immeubles situés en France.

Les droits s'appliquent au prix mentionné dans l'acte authentique en prenant en compte l'ensemble des charges et indemnités dues au vendeur.

Dans le cas du viager, ils s'appliquent sur la valeur en capital de la rente.

Les droits s'appliquent également à toutes les charges « augmentatives du prix de vente », c'est-à-dire à toutes les charges qui incombent normalement au vendeur et que l'acheteur paie à sa place (taxe foncière, etc.). Toutefois, ces droits ne tiennent pas compte de la commission d'intermédiaire (notaire, agent immobilier, etc.) quand cette commission est à la charge de l'acquéreur.

Comme dans toutes les mutations soumises à un droit d'enregistrement, l'administration peut effectuer un redressement en substituant, au prix mentionné dans l'acte, la valeur vénale de l'immeuble.

Les droits sont payés lors de la signature de l'acte authentique.

the relevant part:

Les droits s'appliquent également à toutes les charges « augmentatives du prix de vente » = the reason why an estimated amount of "charges annuelles" was added "pour la perception du droit d'enregistrement" i.e. to establish the real value of the rental contract / the amount to be taxed.

But it's only an "estimated amount" - it is not due to anyone nor paid to anyone, so it surely CAN NOT be "offset" against anything.
Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M : Hooray! Correct analysis, well explained! And 'ne saurait...' used in this way certainly has the sense of 'cannot...', 'may not...' etc.
12 mins
Thanks!
disagree Samira S. : Just a note, phrase is using the "ne" explétif in "ne saurait"...it then has a positive...not a negative connotation***not at all, it has not gone out of fashion. But "ne saurait" as you have explained in the second line of your reply is not correct.
15 mins
What about taking into account ALL available information, the whole sentence for a start? Gone out of fashion as method?
disagree SafeTex : Disagree mainly because the answer is incomplete. Dispute what??? What happened to "au décompte"? This was part of the question after all. For someone who tells other to read ALL of the information, I think we should have ALL of the answer
4 days
N'importe quoi! What exactly did you expect? The whole ST translated? This is enough to make clear what the asked term means, and the meaning of the whole sentence // I'm sure Asker can decide the right final version, once the meaning is clarified.
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-1
2 days 23 hrs

the two amounts cannot be in conflict with each other - they are and remain as is

Hello,

I didn't have much time to go over this.

Just maybe "est opposé à" means "s'opposer à" = is able to be contested

The "évaluation" amount cannot be in conflict (opposé à) with the "décompte" (total amount). In other words, "décompte" (total amount) cannot be misaligned with the amount in "évaluation." It all has to be line up and match. The total amounts and "evaluation" amount stand as is.

I hope this helps (probably not, though).



Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : I agree with parts of your argument, for sure — the idea of the 2 amounts not being able to "be in conflict with each other" — but I think the inference you draw is false: the 'fictional' amount can't be used to invalidate the 'real' one.
20 hrs
Thank you, Tony! Have a nice weekend.
disagree Daryo : "It all has to be line up and match" ??? The whole point of this clause is that these two amounts have no connection between them WHATSOEVER - whether they "match" or not is irrelevant - they are NOT to be compared at all in any way!
20 days
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