This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
lijntjesexercitie
stofuitdrukking

Glossary entry

Dutch term or phrase:

fijnschilder

English translation:

fijnschilder (literally ‘fine-painter’) [with ‘fijnschilder’ in italics]

Added to glossary by Michael Beijer
Mar 6, 2013 11:58
11 yrs ago
Dutch term

fijnschilder

Dutch to English Art/Literary Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting art book
I´m translating a book about a contemporary figurative painter X. The Dutch sentence I have to translate (into American English) is:

´X noemt zich fijnschilder, en dat klopt precies. Fijner dan hij (a), (b) en (c) schildert, kan het niet.´

The target audience are Americans interested in contemporary Dutch figurative art. A translation I´m considering is precision painter, analogous to precision tools. Or: finepainter (fine as in fineliner).

Thanks for your trouble,
Simone
Proposed translations (English)
4 +4 fijnschilder (literally ‘fine-painter’) [with ‘fijnschilder’ in italics]
4 +3 "fine painter"
5 +1 fine arts painter
5 -1 Fine artist
Change log

Mar 20, 2013 11:46: Michael Beijer Created KOG entry

Discussion

Jennifer Barnett Mar 13, 2013:
licence Well, obviously. As long as the meaning is the same which is the case here. Of course terms and key words require accuracy.
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 13, 2013:
'Licence'

Okay, but this should be clear and generally we are not supposed to 'write our own story'.

'Surely we also have to 'localise' as well as translating?'

We need to put across the original meaning in a way that makes sense to our audience. We are not supposed to keep them in the dark.
So localising may be, and often is, required.
Jennifer Barnett Mar 13, 2013:
translators' artistic licence Ah, but you see, I am a creative translator. Above all, I prefer not to create the claim that it is literally impossible. I considered 'finely' but according to my OED, it is the same as 'fine', and I wanted to keep the 'fine' play going anyway. I too like 'finely' more.

Yes, it was discussed but we still don't know for sure about the target audience. The text sounds more popular than learned to me. In any case, 'fine' without the Dutch art history context remains vague.

Surely we also have to 'localise' as well as translate?
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 13, 2013:
Yes, I see what you mean, it depends on the context.
However, the word 'fine-painter' comes first and this explains in what sense the word 'fine' is used here.
It was already discussed that the audience probably was familiar with the concept of 'fijnschilder / fine-painter'

I need to point out that the text does not say, not explicitly say, that nobody can paint more finely than him but that it is impossible to paint more finely than the way he painted A, B and C.

I used the words 'more finely' not the word 'finer'. I think there is a difference.

Having said that, if you assume that the audience is not familiar with the concept of 'fijnschilder', then the first part of your suggestion may be useful.
Jennifer Barnett Mar 13, 2013:
it's the context What's fine in Dutch is not always fine in English (here fine means OK). You can say "it's a fine painting" but the meaning ranges from 'nicely painted' to "I like this painting". . Yes, your chosen list of terms are correct but a 'fine meal' is not necessarily a 'refined meal', it can also be one you enjoyed. We had a fine time (a great time). It depends on the context. The OED has 18 different meanings for 'fine'! So in this context, in English, 'fine' can be rather vague. That's why I think that the Dutch context has to be clear in the translation.
As for your option, the Dutch meaning of 'fijnschilder' (meticulous) is absent.
My version, with not enough context to go on:
X calls himself a 'fijnschilder', a 'fine' or meticulous painter (in the tradition of the eponymous 17th century genre), and no other could have painted a, b, or c 'finer' than he/she.
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 13, 2013:
By the way, would this, or something similar, be an option in English?

X calls himself a 'fine-painter' and this is exactly what he is. It is absolutely impossible to paint more 'finely' than the way he painted A, B and C.

finely:

in a very careful, delicate, or exact way

Saunders' finely crafted drawings
These instruments are very finely tuned
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 13, 2013:
Fijner dan dat hij schilderij A, B en C schildert kan het niet

means

Gedetailleerder dan dat hij schilderij A, B en C schildert kan het niet

I doesn't sound odd at all to me.


fijne instrumenten
fijn afgewerkt
fijn schrift
fijne details :-)
Jennifer Barnett Mar 13, 2013:
but "finer than..." sounds odd That point is that you can't say..."But finer than (c) ...". Well, you can but it's odd. Or 'finer' should be in inverted commas to maintain the connection with the original in word and meaning. "More meticulously /precisely rendered than (a) ..." would be more faithful to the meaning but then you lose the possible word play and it sounds so serious and heavy.
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 13, 2013:
Hallo Jennifer. Naar mijn gevoel is er in dit geval geen sprake van een woordenspel.

Maar simpel een duidelijke bevestiging van dat hij dat is, een 'fijnschilder': ' ... en dat klopt precies.'

Wat dan verder duidelijk wordt gemaakt met het noemen van die voorbeelden: hij kan net zo gedetailleerd - fijn - schilderen als de 'fijnschilders'.

Wat dan alleen maar verder onderstreept dat hier inderdaad wordt verwezen naar de 'fijnschilders'.

It is all quite straightforward.
Jennifer Barnett Mar 13, 2013:
two meanings of 'fijn' here Yes, the painter call himself a 'fijnschilder', presumably in the 17thC. genre, but the writer then says "Fijner dan hij (a), (b) en (c) schildert, kan het niet." This is the possible word play. The question is whether it is indeed so and not just ignorance of the meaning of 'fijnschilder'. Just thought of classical art/painting (art predating modern and contemporary art) and post-modern classical; see http://www.parnasse.com/artifice.html. One would need to see examples of the artist's work to be sure.
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 13, 2013:
Waar het simpelweg om gaat, is om X

X wordt hier impliciet geciteerd: "X noemt zich een 'fijnschilder' ..."

Waar doelt X daarbij op?
Nou, ik denk dat hij daarbij doelt op die speciale categorie schilders die in dat wikipedia artikel worden genoemd.

En als dit zo is, waar ik vrijwel van overtuigd ben, dan zou ik de keuze maken zoals ik die voorgesteld heb.
Jennifer Barnett Mar 13, 2013:
Keep to the 'official' meaning I agree that the term should be literally translated [fine painter] with the explanation that this is reference to a 17th century Dutch genre. In English, a 'fine artist' is a value judgement, not a practitioner of the fine arts. Today it is called photo-realism but of course in the 17C they were not painting from a photo, just being as accurate and precise as possible. IMHO the problem arises from a rather loose use of the term by the author who would seem to be writing in a popular style (opleuken!) rather than one aimed at an informed public. It seems that the author was playing on the word. In any case, I would check to see if the artist is indeed a photo-realist painter. It has been always amazing to see the idiotic texts written by journalists and 'writers' on art (history) or art conservation when trying to make things accessible to a broad public. This text may be in the same category.
Chris Hopley Mar 8, 2013:
blokwitter Let's not overlook the obvious, also cited in the Wikipedia article: "in the seventeenth century, as in modern Dutch, the term fijnschilder was used to differentiate between a painter practicing classic techniques and one who, for instance, is a house painter".
Wiard Sterk Mar 6, 2013:
Dicht bij het origineel blijven maar met de verschillende connotaties spelen, lijkt mij juist het duidelijkst.
freekfluweel Mar 6, 2013:
Dat wil toch niet zeggen dat je niet moet proberen zo dicht mogelijk bij het origineel te blijven; dat zo goed mogelijk proberen te verklaren/vertalen...? Juist omdat de doelgroep hoogstwaarschijnlijk "geïnteresseerden" zijn, zal je met een redelijk specifieke omschrijving moeten komen!
Wiard Sterk Mar 6, 2013:
En zo wordt een korte zin een heel verhaal met verklaringen en is de 'flow' van de tekst verloren. Die uitleg is niet nodig, ook omdat een geïntereseerd wel degelijk van de verschillende connotaties op de hoogte is. Hou het simpel.
freekfluweel Mar 6, 2013:
Kan iemand een NIET-NL fijnschilder noemen? Neen, dat was een groep schilders uit Leiden, dus term kan alleen omschreven worden, is niet te vertalen.

Dou Gerrit or Gerard (1613—75). Dutch painter of portraits and genre, and the founder of the fijnschilders ('fine-painters').

http://www.all-art.org/artists-d-3.html

misschien zelfs toevoegen: "Dutch painter(s) from the Golden Age"
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 6, 2013:
Ja ik zou of voor

'fijnschilder' cursief kiezen

of voor

'fine-painter' tussen aanhalingstekens

als naar de 'fijnschilders' wordt verwezen, wat bijna wel moet

@ Phil

(a), (b) en (c) zijn 3 schilderijen van hem
philgoddard Mar 6, 2013:
Please could we have some more context. Who is the artist (you're not giving away any confidences, unless he is your client), what are (a), (b) and (c), and what does it say before and after this sentence?

As Barend's Wikipedia article says, it has two meanings: a fine arts painter (as opposed to, say, someone who paints houses), and someone who paints in extremely fine detail. The latter appears to be the case here, but we don't have much text to go on. It may be appropriate to use the Dutch word, followed by a few words of explanation - though it sounds like the readership is pretty erudite and may not need it.
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 6, 2013:
het klopt dat de schilder 'a practitioner of the fine arts' is, maar die heb je in vele soorten en maten en dat is precies het probleem

'fijnschilders' zijn een speciale groep binnen de beoefenaars van de 'fine art' (kunst)

'fine arts painter' of 'fine artist' is veel te breed voor 'fijnschilder'
Wiard Sterk Mar 6, 2013:
De schilder in kwestie is 'a practitioner of the fine arts'. Hij is ook een 'fine artist', een goeie kunstenaar, die werkt in een 'fine medium', met een 'fine line' en in 'fine detail'. Maak er maar van wat je will.
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 6, 2013:
Het lijkt me heel goed mogelijk - ik denk dat het zo is - dat degene die zichzelf een 'fijnschilder' noemt, verwijst naar de groep schilders die in het wikipedia artikel worden genoemd.

In dat geval zou je ervoor kunnen kiezen om te vertalen met

'fine-painter'

tussen aanhalingstekens

@Alexander, ik noemde 'still life painters' slechts als voorbeeld

waarom het gaat is dat het werk van 'fijnschilders' is characterized by meticulous detail.
Alexander Schleber (X) Mar 6, 2013:
Jawél "still life painters" zijn een gedeelte van de fijne kunsten (fine arts). Ik denk dat "fine-painters" een iets te direkte vertaling is.
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 6, 2013:
Lastig.
Ik neem aan dat je dit artikel al had gezien:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fijnschilder

Het is maar net wat er precies wordt bedoeld in jouw tekst

Ik ken een 'fijnschilder' die een 'still life painter' is

Proposed translations

+4
2 hrs
Selected

fijnschilder (literally ‘fine-painter’) [with ‘fijnschilder’ in italics]

I would follow the Wikipedia article:

The Fijnschilders (literally "fine-painters"), also called the Leiden Fijnschilders ('Leidse Fijnschilders'), were Dutch Golden Age painters who, from about 1630 to 1710, strove to create as natural a reproduction of reality as possible in their meticulously executed, often small-scale works. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fijnschilder )
Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fijnschilder

Peer comment(s):
agree freekfluweel : see also my comment!
12 mins
Thanks, Freek!
neutral philgoddard : Lianne has already suggested that you could leave it untranslated.
42 mins
Sorry, I missed that.
agree Lianne van de Ven : I think Michael and I posted at the same time. I think the choice is up to the translator.
4 hrs
Thanks, Lianne!
agree Kitty Brussaard
19 hrs
Thanks, Kitty!
agree Jennifer Barnett : Only way to go! See my discussion entry.
6 days
Thanks!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
-1
15 mins

Fine artist

He is a practitioner of the 'fine arts', therefore a fine artist. How you work that into a sentence is up to you.
Reference:

http://www.prospects.ac.uk/fine_artist_job_description.htm

Peer comment(s):
disagree Michael Beijer : I think the author means more than just 'fine artist' here. / Sorry Wiard, I would have selected 'neutral' if I thought 'fine artist' was a possibility here. It's too general. More is meant by that term.
2 hrs
Michael, that is a bit harsh, in particular since the term 'fine artist;' is a recognised art-historical classification. How you use that in the translated sentence is up to the translator, but there are many possibilities to play with this. Amend?
neutral freekfluweel : "The way he made that goal with that bicycle-kick,... he's a fine artist!/oké, beetje overdreven... vandaar ook neutraal ;-)
2 hrs
Erg leuk ;). Maar alle grappen op een rijtje, een fine artist is een fine artist, in welk medium hij of zij ook werkt en om juist te vertalen is misschien ook een fine art.
neutral Jennifer Barnett : For reasons stated in the discussion. I'm sorry but the term 'fine artist' in this sense is simply not an accepted term in the art world. Response: OK, then I accept that it is jargon but I couldn't find a definition of 'fine painter' on Oxford Art Online
7 days
I am sorry, Jennifer, as an Art Historian I disagree. It is an accepted, it just depends on the wider context of the translation whether it would fit here and how you use it in the translation.
Something went wrong...
+3
2 hrs

"fine painter"

or if you want: finepainter (few occasions on the internet). You could also leave it untranslated and see if an interpretation allows to state that the artist can be seen as a fine-painter in the tradition of the Dutch Fijnschilders.

The Leiden school of fijnschilder ("fine painters") were renowned for small and highly finished paintings, many of this type.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Golden_Age_painting

The Fijnschilders (literally "fine-painters"), also called the Leiden Fijnschilders ('Leidse Fijnschilders'), were Dutch Golden Age painters who, from about 1630 to 1710, strove to create as natural a reproduction of reality as possible in their meticulously executed, often small-scale works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fijnschilder

Even if this applies to a contemporary artist, obviously it is intended to refer to the second meaning of finepainters, and not just the generic fine artists or fine arts painters.
Peer comment(s):
agree Michael Beijer : Either this or something along the lines of my own suggestion.
3 mins
Thanks.
neutral Wiard Sterk : That would suggest he is just a very nice painter and ignores the broader connotations of the term fine artist. ... That would just emphasise it, as in he is a "fine man".
8 mins
No, not when you put it in quotes, indicating that you are using terminology.
neutral freekfluweel : ...
20 mins
Thanks.
agree philgoddard : You could say something like "a fijnschilder, or fine painter, in the intricately detailed tradition of Holland's Golden Age". Not "finepainter" though.
41 mins
Thanks
agree Kitty Brussaard
19 hrs
Bedankt!
Something went wrong...
+1
40 mins

fine arts painter

A "fine painter" can just be a very good painter.
A painter doing fine arts canvasses => a fine arts painter.
In the 18th and 19th centry "Fine Arts" was the term of choice => Fine Arts Museumn etc.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2013-03-06 15:13:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

´X noemt zich fijnschilder, en dat klopt precies. Fijner dan hij (a), (b) en (c) schildert, kan het niet.´
= X calls himself a fine arts painter, and that's exactly right. Finer than he paints (a), (b) and (c) is not possible.

Doesn't that cover it pretty exactly?
I am looking forward to the reactions. ;-)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 days (2013-03-13 14:03:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Looking at Google hits and some of my art books, "fine art painter" may be better. But anyway, IMO "fine painter" is just too plain- it could be someone doing your garage. There is definitely a play on words in the source, which is why it is important to get the art in there. My god, the ink that has flowed in this discussion on "fine art"!
Peer comment(s):
disagree Michael Beijer : I think the author means more than just 'fine arts painter' here.
1 hr
agree Wiard Sterk : I think this also a good interpretation of the term. It's up to the translator how they play with this in the rest of the translation. ... Pleasure. I think the discussion has gone somewhat off track. I hope Simone can make sense of it all.
1 hr
Thanks - at least one pserson that agrees with me after all this expenditure of brain-power. ;-)
neutral freekfluweel : These artists painted in the Golden Age, some hundred years before your ref of "Fine Arts"/Yes, but referring to those painters, but point taken!
2 hrs
Oh yes? The book is supposedly about "contemporary figurative painters".
agree Chris Hopley : This works well in the context of the sentence that follows, as your example translation demonstrates. The word play will be lost if you start digressing about the Golden Age.
2 days 22 mins
Thanks Chris - as you can see, this question has divided/agitated the community rather extensively. ;-)
neutral Jennifer Barnett : This is what I call a descriptive translation, but again, not an accepted term in the art world AFAIK. 'A painter in the fine arts tradition' would be more elegant.
7 days
Something went wrong...
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search