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créance du dernier rang
conditionnement d'air
Jun 19, 2013 11:29
10 yrs ago
French term

se faire

French to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature
In folk tales, a common theme is "l'épreuve traditionnelle par laquelle le jeune homme né illégitime se fait par son père et par les siens."

I'm saying "is recognized", but is there anything better? Pointers to similar literary uses would be much appreciated.

TIA.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +1 to be made, - forged (passive voice)
4 +3 prove himself (make himself recognised)
4 +1 gains recognition
3 +1 accepted by (his father)
Change log

Jun 19, 2013 11:32: Armorel Young changed "Language pair" from "English" to "French to English"

Jun 20, 2013 01:41: Emanuela Galdelli changed "Term asked" from "se faire (in this context)" to "se faire"

Discussion

DLyons (asker) Jun 21, 2013:
@all It's been confirmed that there was indeed a missing "reconnaître". Thanks to Alison for finding that at least snippets are available online - I'll check that first if anything similar arises. Thanks also to everyone who pointed out the likelihood of ellipsis. I'm awarding the points to Nikki on the basis that hers was the rightest answer to the question as asked. Indeed my own reading is that her answer is actually closer to what the author meant than the "se fait reconnaître" she wrote.
axies Jun 20, 2013:
@Nikki Thanks Nikki. No intention to offend anyone.
To these peers with answers to this question that felt like you my apologies in advance.
I think that you took it the wrong way. What I meant to say is that anyone can take a guess at the author is saying. Of course I read through all the answers, including yours and came up with one explanation that to me seems logical.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jun 20, 2013:
@Axies It is pretty certain now that there is in fact a word missing in the original. However, I think you need to be careful before describing suggested answers as guesses. Suggestions are supported by explanations as to how each answer has been reached, particularly regarding which elements have been taken into account. I considered that there was nothing missing (although now can but agree that is not the case). My suggestion is based on a reading of "se faire" which exists and which is possible. Cf. Any goof dictionary "se faire". It is not based on a literal reading, nor on implied meaning. Others, at the time when it was not considered there was anything missing, were not guessing either, but read into the sentence an implied meaning of recognition or acceptance. We did not agree on the reading, but that is what KudoZ is for!
As it turns out, there is indeed a word missing and one which is in line with suggestions put forward.

Care needs to be taken before affirming that answers appear and sound like guesses.
axies Jun 20, 2013:
Missing infinitive? 10:17pm Jun 19 Agree with Victoria Britten.
It is a reflexive verb, with part of it missing.
All the given answers appear and sound like guesses.
DLyons (asker) Jun 19, 2013:
Looks like there's a word missing in my text! Let me check back whether it's deliberate - seems more likely to be an error.

Thanks Alison.
piazza d Jun 19, 2013:
Thank you Alison... this time, the sentence is grammatically correct.
Alison MacG Jun 19, 2013:
Reconnaître? Are you still working on Theseus? Have you seen the following remarkably similar quote?
Rappelons l'épreuve traditionnelle par laquelle le jeune homme né illégitime se fait reconnaître par son père et par les siens; n'oublions pas l'image d'un Thésée grand monarque, du roi bienfaisant qui succède au fringant prince héritier;
http://books.google.co.uk/books?ei=jMDBUaLBKcnL0AWZyoGgCg&id...
DLyons (asker) Jun 19, 2013:
Ellipsis? The full original sentence is "Rappelons l'épreuve traditionnelle par laquelle le jeune homme né illégitime se fait par son père et par les siens."

Of course, "reconnaître", "accepter" etc could be added but any ellipsis is the author's, not mine. There's nothing missing between "fait" and "par".
piazza d Jun 19, 2013:
I agree with Victoria... I do not understand "SE fait ???PAR son père...."
Obviously, there is something missing
Victoria Britten Jun 19, 2013:
Missing infinitive? After "se faire": "reconnaître", "accepter"... Those are indeed the most probable notions, to my mind, but why the ellipsis? I stumbled when I read it - surely I'm not the only one?

Proposed translations

+1
55 mins
French term (edited): se faire (in this context)
Selected

to be made, - forged (passive voice)

I think it has nothing to do with acceptance or with recognition and everything to do with the making of the man, the person, the individual he is to become, or becomes. "Is made" in the sense of the character or the person being forged by his father and his immediate social environment.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 59 mins (2013-06-19 12:29:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Se faire" is being used to describe the conferring of an attribute upon the person concerned, that of particular state of being.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2013-06-19 13:57:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The subject is "le jeune homme" who "se fait".
How this is achieved is "par son père et par les siens".
It's to do with being, becoming an' all that.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2013-06-19 14:01:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Consider "le jeune homme se fait par" and then "le jeune homme est fait par".
Now compare "le jeune homme se fait par" and "le jeune homme est accepté/reconnu par".
I think that the second interpretation changes the sense of the original and that it does not hold out.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2013-06-19 18:20:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

There is now the question that the original contains a mistake, a missing word, which renders my reading incorrect.
Peer comment(s):
agree Catcressie : agree with the idea of the making of the man
6 mins
neutral Daryo : very plausible option, but only if you ignore the "par son père et par les siens" part. Clarification of the ST needed.
54 mins
It is rather because of, not in spite of the "par son père etc" that lead me to read it this way.
neutral Jim Tucker (X) : Your meaning would still require an inf.: "se fait faire par" (not sure anyone would say this) - but "se fait par"?
17 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks Nikki. This I think is the best answer to the question as originally stated."
+1
18 mins
French term (edited): se faire (in this context)

accepted by (his father)

I think that this word would be relevant to the context of both folk stories and also many other contexts.
Example sentence:

"Due to the strict Korean Confucian laws of the Joseon Dynasty, Heo expressed his ideas in this novel, where Hong, born an illegitimate child, is not accepted by his father and family."

Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Gildong

Note from asker:
Thanks Laura. See my note above.
Peer comment(s):
agree Veronika McLaren
6 mins
agree Paul Hirsh : or earns acceptance from etc etc
7 mins
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : I cannot read the meaning of recognition or acceptance as phrased. // I know it is not meant to be literal./// With the new context this makes sense now. However, acceptance is perhaps not strong enough for what we now know is "reconnaître".
40 mins
THe translation is not intended to be literal.
disagree Catcressie : Agree with Nikki
43 mins
THe translation is not intended to be literal.
neutral Daryo : most likely, but the ST needs to be clarified/rechecked.
1 hr
Something went wrong...
+1
3 hrs
French term (edited): se faire (in this context)

gains recognition

a suggestion
Note from asker:
Thanks piazza d for your answer and suggestions. See my note above.
Peer comment(s):
agree Verginia Ophof
1 hr
thank you
Something went wrong...
+3
3 hrs
French term (edited): se faire (in this context)

prove himself (make himself recognised)

I'm going by Alison's finding of :

Rappelons l'épreuve traditionnelle par laquelle le jeune homme né illégitime se fait reconnaître par son père et par les siens;

which I think far more likely here. many heros in folk tales and epics have to perform feats in order to PROVE themselves and thus make themselves recognised
Note from asker:
Thanks gallagy2 - a good answer to what the question should have been. See my note above.
Peer comment(s):
agree Nikki Scott-Despaigne : With the benefit of the new sentence, then "prove himself" is a good suggestion. ("To make oneself recognised" ought to be to "get oneself recognised" but "to gain the recognition of his father etc" would be better.
4 hrs
Thanks Nikki! Yes, "gain... recognition...or even perhaps "be acknowledged by..." would be better
agree Alison MacG : I think "prove himself to" is a good solution in this context, the meaning being "have himself acknowledged by" (cf. Harraps entry: se faire reconnaître par une sentinelle - to give an account of oneself (to a sentry)
18 hrs
thanks Alison!
agree Clive Rodgers : I agree with you guys - The notion of proving themselves would be lost by simply saying 'is made' - the test here is of the young man's abilities, him 'showing what he's made of', not actually making him into a man but proving himself to his peers
14 days
Thanks! (And welcome to Kudoz!)
Something went wrong...
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