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English to French translations [PRO] Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature / correspondances privées artiste
English term or phrase:denial
Il s'agit de correspondances privées entre différents artistes du 19e/20e siècle. Avant la lettre elle-même, une présentation succincte décrit la vie de l'artiste et son oeuvre. Nous parlons ici d'Egon Schiele, peintre controversé pour ses moeurs et le caractère érotique de ses nus. Il fut emprisonné pour cette raison à Neulengbach. Je ne vois pas, dans la phrase ci-dessous, comment comprendre ce "in denial". Je n'ai pas d'autres précisions. Merci de vos suggestions.
"The painter Egon Schiele moved to Krumau in 1911, the place his mother was born, and established his atelier there. Already the very same year he was forced to move to Neulengbach near Vienna. With his common law marriage and the nudes of young girls he met with the people **in denial**."
Bon je poste à nouveau mon explication car à priori, cela n'avait pas marché. Au vu de vos avis partagés, et étant moi-même indécise sur l'interprétation à donner dans ce contexte précis, je me suis tournée vers le client qui m'a répondu qu'il n'en savait rien, car le texte a été écrit il y a longtemps de cela. Il a choisi une solution assez neutre "fit face/se heurta au rejet d'une population (hostile)", qui reflète la réponse de Lisa et la suggestion de Tony dans ses commentaires. J'ai donc opté pour la réponse di Lisa, mais d'autres ont contribué à aller sur cette voie.. (Je ne peux choisir qu'une réponse malheureusement). Un grand merci à tous pour la séance de brainstorming!!
... et de ses déplacements forcés ne lui importaient guère, ne l'affectaient pas. Malgré le désaveu du public et la polémique autour de ses nus et des très jeunes poseuses, il a volontairement fait la sourde oreille =>DENIAL. Il a ignoré *cette* réalité-là (cette polémique) et a **CONTINUÉ** à les peindre... d'où sa NÉGATION (Denial) de la polémique, du désaveu public et des autres sentiments hostiles envers lui. Il a *CONTINUÉ,* en dépit et en défi de TOUS,.... à peindre la nudité féminine dans toute sa splendeur ! ;)
@Tony : it may be the solution :-) @ Multipro : admettant que ce soit HE qui soit in denial, j'ai du mal à comprendre (désolée, à force de tourner la phrase dans tous les sens...). Il se voilait la face/se refusait à voir la réalité = il refuse d'admettre que ses nus et ses moeurs choquent la population/entraînent une réaction hostile de la part de cette dernière ?
Given the overall flawed nature of the EN, we might well arrive at the conclusion that the expression 'in denial' wasn't really what the writer wanted to say; maybe it is a simple as 'encountered people who were hostile'?
As I have been at pains to explain, there is at least one interpretation that could explain why 'the people' are in denial --- though as I have also suggested below, I'm not convinced that the writer actually chose the expression correctly in the first place (given the other flaws in the EN syntax of the sentence).
It is clear there was something deeply Freudian in this artist's life and work, but I really don't feel there is any way we can interpret it as being he who is in denial.
Oui, Claire je le vois ainsi. Avec les bribes d'infos que j'ai seulement maintenant à ce sujet grâce à votre question. Il va falloir que je lise toute la notice biographique d'Egon Schiele car je ne le connaissais pas. Pourquoi les gens seraient-ils * IN* denial ?
'he' is the last person in denial here! If we assume it is 'in denial' in the Freudian sense as you say (and as I had instinctively interpreted it), then surely it is the people who are 'shocked' by the thought that a woman might be portrayed naked, and further, that a young woman (a minor) might be associated with eroticism; as if these things did not exist in real life...
@Multipro : merci pour le comment, oui c'est déni dans son acception "freudienne" . Mais vous pensez que "in denial" concerne le "HE" et pas "people"??? Cette phrase me fait tourner en bourrique.
Ah good, I see from your edited comment that you do after all read this the same way as I.
Although not strictly essential, one might usefully add a comma after 'girls' --- in that way, underlining the subordinate nature of the clause "with ... girls" to the main part of the sentence 'he met with {the} people in denial'.
The point of course being that he didn't just 'meet' these girls --- he painted them naked.
Bonsoir, malheureusement c'est bien la dernière phrase de cette courte présentation qui en comprend trois en tout (le petit texte que j'ai collé est la présentation dans son intégralité).
Avec une virgule, la phrase serait plus intelligible. Je ne veux pas m'aventurer dans des conjectures farfelues ni m'égarer sur la piste d'origine de l'auteur qui ne conduirait à rien. Peut-être tout simplement, il manque une virgule après "girls". Il serait bien utile d'avoir les phrases qui viennent immédiatement après. Pouvez-vous nous les indiquer ?
If the s/t said 'met with denial', I would be able to admit your suggestion; but the expression 'in denial' is so specific, I don't think the writer would have been likely to use it as not only the wrong lexical choice, but also the wrong part of speech.
From past experience, I'd say this is probably not actually a translation from another language, but rather, written in EN by someone who is not a native speaker, and whose writing has been influenced by their mother tongue. This would explain the correct use of an EN expression like 'in denial', but then getting the vocabulary slightly skewed with the verb 'met with', and the confusion of whether or not to include that definite article.
surely it means that he met with rejection on the part of the (local) people ? If it was German originally - your idea not mine - then even the sentence structure would be explained. As to "treffen" you may be right on that but it is all supposition.
It is easy to see how coming from German or French, the wrong choice of word might have been used for the verb 'met' -- a more or less single-word error.
However, the very specific adjectival expression 'in denial' is not a likely syntactical error for the noun 'rejection' -- and this would require the assumption of a multiple-word error and some jolly convoluted contortions of the syntax to go with!
The error is easy to understand if, for example, the original verb in German had been 'treffen', which can translate into EN as both 'meet (with)' and 'encounter' (to name but a few).
d'origine mais je crois que cela veut dire : With his common law marriage and the nudes of young girls, he was rejected (denied ?) by the people that he met (or he met with rejection from the people). Le mot allemand (s'il s'agit de cela) pourrait être "Ablehnung" qui peut se traduire par "denial" ou par "rejection"
Oui je crois que c'est dans ce sens-là, Tony qui vient de répondre appuie également cette lecture de la phrase. Phewww, merci à vous deux, je commence à y voir plus clair ;-)
Bonjour Françoise :-) . Mais c'est bien la question que je me pose... Ce qui est certain, c'est qu'il est rejeté, il a déjà du partir de Krummau car la population ne le porte pas dans son coeur. Et après avoir été emprisonné à Neulengbach, il doit également partir.
est-ce que c'est lui qui est "in denial", qui refuse de se rendre à l'évidence (et de tenir compte de la mentalité ambiante) ? Ou est-il renié, désavoué ?
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
16 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): +1
in denial
dans le déni
Explanation: You need to keep 'in denial' together as a set expression, referring her it seems to the 'people'.
But there seems to be soemthing wrong with your source text; is it possible it was written by a non-native EN speaker? I suspect the verb 'met' is wrong, and should have been something stronger like 'came face-to-face with' or 'encountered' --- this would be a typical lexical error for a non-native speaker, where in many other languages the same word would be used for all three of those meanings.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 17 mins (2013-06-23 09:49:00 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Also, the use of 'the' in front of 'people' rings odd, and could again be a sign of a non-native writer.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 31 mins (2013-06-23 10:03:26 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
I feel more than ever convinced it is a translation from German, which would explain several of the syntax elements.
And logically, 'he' is the principal subject of the sentence and hence of the verb 'met' -- but of course, it's actually the verb 'to meet with', which is probably wrong; though cf. the EN expression 'to meet with opposition' = 'encounter'; here, it would have been fine if the author had said 'met with opposition from people in denial'
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 3 hrs (2013-06-23 12:54:20 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
It's important to bear in mind that the expression used in your source text is 'in denial' --- I think it is unlikely that someone would use that quite specific expression incorrectly, and my interpretation makes logical sense as well: 'people who are in denial' might imply people who refuse to believe women are ever naked, or that nakedness can be erotic, etc...
Tony M France Local time: 02:43 Works in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 48
Notes to answerer
Asker: Tony, thank you ! In fact the sentence sounds odd, especially the "met with the people "...Does "met" refer to girls or people ? I have no information on who wrote this text, but i guess it could be a translation from German...
Asker: Merci Tony, polyglot45 confirme la thèse de l allemand avec possibilité de "rejection" for denial" .
peer agreement (net): +1
