Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 11, 2013:

Het enige wat ik erover kan zeggen, is dat het geholpen zou kunnen hebben als we meer gegevens hadden gehad.

Het is aan de vraagstelster om verdere gegevens te verstrekken of niet.

Verder is het commentaar bij de gekozen vertaling niet 'logisch'.

freekfluweel Sep 11, 2013:

Nou, ik zou dat zinnetje van mij maar als ludiek opvatten.

Neen, ik wens niemand de wet voor te schrijven maar ik vind het onbehoorlijk als er veel mensen kosteloos aan jouw probleem werken (hier 50 discussieposten) en dat vraagstelster dan niet reageert. Dat heeft niks met welk vakgebied of met het voorschrijven van wetten te maken... maar met goed fatsoen en daar mag ik best iemand op wijzen!

En ik merk op dat dit de laatste tijd veel gebeurt.

Tijd om een KudoZ-break te nemen!

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 11, 2013:

Détente ?? Een beetje plagen mag toch wel als iemand zo stevig uit de hoek komt, ook indirect in mijn richting.

Geen grensoverschrijdend gedrag van mijn kant hier, totaal niet.

Anderzijds lijk jij mensen de wet voor te willen schrijven.

freekfluweel Sep 11, 2013:

@Asker: vreemde keuze A. het 'rolling in' vind ik prachtig, omdat deze vertaling golven suggereert, dat is wat anders dan "water".

B. van alle antwoorden met "golven" (pouring, wave upon wave, rolling) heeft juist dat antwoord dat U gekozen hebt niks met dat van doen.

Het commentaar van MB begrijp ik dan ook wel een beetje.

@Asker: U kunt hier gratis een verzoek tot hulp voor vertaling doen; goede zeden dicteren dan echter dat participatie in de discussie erg op prijs wordt gesteld, zeker na enkele verzoeken zulks...

freekfluweel Sep 11, 2013:

Détente, gentlemen, please,... détente! or would that be asking too much noblesse-oblige...?

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 11, 2013:

Wie kaatst, kan de bal verwachten. :-)

Dave Greatrix Sep 11, 2013:

Yaaaawwwn......zz...zz....

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 11, 2013:

Het is misschien niet ideaal maar ook niet totaal onmogelijk. Beetje dimmen, hè. Het blijft misschien behelpen met 'water' verplicht.

'rolls in like water' means 'in great quantities' :-)

Michaels....Mitt Romney was delusional about becoming the President of the USA....he wants to be President so badly and thought MONEY would do it for him. He learned a very good lesson on this regard. I too was nervous about the money rolling in like water to defeat the President, but as it turn out to be MONEY is helpless in the face of people's voices.

http://www.democratichub.com/posts/7970/default.aspx

Overigens zijn er hieronder 2 letterlijke voorbeelden te vinden.

Dave Greatrix Sep 11, 2013:

You'll never be convinced, and I haven't got time for this anymore, I'm busy.....translating.

Michael Beijer Sep 11, 2013:

I can't, ... which is to be expected, as I never said that I agree with Berend's answer. I don’t. I just don’t think yours is correct either.

My comment on Barend's suggestion, 'Have money rolling in like water.' was as follows:

'Hi Barend, I don’t think this sounds right in English. ~~ I think you got it half right. 'Money rolling in' sounds good, 'like water' less good. I think what you were searching for was 'rolling in like waves'. This is a common idiom, & also fits the brief.'

Dave Greatrix Sep 11, 2013:

OK, just show me a literary example of where "money rolls in like water" and I don't mean one taken from a forum or a blog...

Michael Beijer Sep 11, 2013:

Whether I actually care or not is beside the point. The fact remains that half of your answer revolves around a phrase that is unidiomatic in English. Getting angry at me for pointing that out isn’t going to change it. In English, you 'spend' money like water, you don't 'make' it.

Dave Greatrix Sep 11, 2013:

Do you really care Michael? Well, do you....? Give me a break! Don't insult my intelligence.

Michael Beijer Sep 11, 2013:

Dave I don’t care who gets the points. What I care about is that someone doesn't end up giving their artwork a dodgy title as a result of your answer being selected as correct.

Dave Greatrix Sep 11, 2013:

Heaven forbid that points should be awarded to anyone other than your pal Barend or that Mieke doesn't know her own mind! Get over it!

Michael Beijer Sep 11, 2013:

@Mieke: How does your 'Grading comment' 'Dank voor je suggestie: het 'rolling in' vind ik prachtig, omdat deze vertaling golven suggereert' in any way relate to Dave's answer ('makes money like water'), which you ended up choosing as the correct answer, and which, in my opinion, is based on something that is unidiomatic in English? Or at least half of its 'double entendre'. Barend is the only person here who made any mention of 'rolling'. Did you perhaps select the wrong answer?

freekfluweel Sep 8, 2013:

Hoe is de stand, Mieke? of mogen wij niet meer aan Hersengymnastiek doen?

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 2, 2013:

Beste Mieke, Zou je ons kunnen vertellen hoe belangrijk het aspect is van een persoon die geld verdient als water?

Of gaat het meer om de uitdrukking 'geld verdienen als water' in algemene zin.

In het laatste geval lijkt er veel meer mogelijk.

Bij voorbaat dank.

Elke verdere informatie is ook welkom.
Je hoeft niet deel te nemen aan de discussie.
Je plaatst gewoon de informatie die je denkt die nuttig is en klaar is Mieke.

Dan laat je ons gewoon weer verder stoeien.

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 2, 2013:

I would like to add that normally a word would not be 'missing' in a double entendre.
Rather the same sentence can be readily read in two different ways.

This one is funny:

Marie is die nacht goed bevallen.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiguïteit

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 2, 2013:

double entendre There is another problem with this 'double entendre', I realized this only some time later and this is the following.

The idea is based on the target language and not on the source language.

In Dutch you would have:

geld verdienen als water
geld eruit laten zien als water

'geld verdienen als water' is highly unlikely to be read as 'geld eruit laten zien als water'

This means I don't believe this is to do with a double entendre.

Besides, what would be the message of this presumed double entendre? I mean what would it convey to the reader if they could read 'geld verdienen als water' as 'geld eruit laten zien als water'. What is the semantic connection? Ik makes no sense whatsoever.

As I said a few times before, I believe this about a literal visual representation of a metaphorical idiom.

freekfluweel Sep 2, 2013:

Benjamins meet the ocean/An ocean of money (making) an ocean full of/filled with money

Benjamins -> easy/$100 bill
ocean -> lots of it

(persoonlijk zou ik "verdienen" uit de titel halen maar ik heb het kunstwerk niet gezien)

Michael Beijer Sep 2, 2013:

@writeaway: Dear Mr (Mrs?, Ms?) P.,

In reference to Dave's answer, you said, 'For authentic native Anglos this title is PERFECT (I assume the NL title will be used as well). This inherently surreal brouhaha is a sad testimony to what this language pair has now become.'

However, how can an answer that relies on a double entendre, half of which is unidiomatic, be 'perfect'? Are you therefore saying that 'making money like water' / 'to make money like water' is idiomatic English?

Michael Beijer Sep 2, 2013:

@Dave: The asker said: Omdat het kunstwerk naar New York gaat zoeken we een vertaling van Geld als water verdienen, waarin dat water terug komt.

Since we were asked to come up with a title for an artwork, I think Mieke won't mind if we stretch our imagination slightly so as to include things like sea, ocean, waves, etc., in addition to only 'water'.

Dave, you are not going daft. But the fact remains that half of your double entendre is unidiomatic.

Dave Greatrix Sep 2, 2013:

Sounds a lot like Olympic Strawgrasping here - why have the seas suddenly become rivers? Why not change the money to modelling clay, then we can make what we want....

Michael Beijer Sep 2, 2013:

a river of money (another idiom) How about something with one of these:

– a river of money,
– earning rivers of money
– rivers of money,
– A river of money runs through it (if you had seen 'A River Runs Through', you would see why this is funny),
– Money River,
etc.

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 2, 2013:

It doesn't solve the problem, if I understand you correctly.
Both parts of the 'double entendre' should be authentic English.

One element of the 'double entendre' is "making money look like water". This would probably be okay.

However, the other element, "making money like water", is supposed to stand for "geld verdienenen als water", while this, as we discussed, is not authentic English.

Another problem might be, whether a person looking at it would arrive at 'making money look like water' from 'making money like water'.

A further problem might be whether the artist wanted to convey a message like 'make money look like water', which seems to be a bit childish.

Without further information, my guess would be that the artist wanted to create a literal representation of the Dutch idiom 'geld verdienen als water'.

So the doubleness would be literally vs figuratively

Dave Greatrix Sep 2, 2013:

Am I going daft, or is everybody missing the point here? The artist is showing paper money that has been ripped to make it look like the sea. What has he done? He has "made money like water" - when he was ripping the bills, he was "making money (look) like water" Could this not be what the artist is attempting to convey? A perfect example of a "double entendre" artwork. If not, it should be!

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 2, 2013:

Perhaps more information will be provided so that we can make a more informed choice.

But how do you want to complete this?
My assumption was that a person, or group, was making big money. After all, it says 'verdienen'.

I assume, it must be clear that this sea of cash flows to someone.
A person is making money hand over first.

I don't know how important this aspect is, or should be.

So 'a sea of cash' and what would be the complete phrase?

Michael Beijer Sep 1, 2013:

a sea of cash ???

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2013:

@ Michael More information would/could be very helpful indeed.

Michael Beijer Sep 1, 2013:

@Barend: To be honest, I don’t like any of the suggestions offered so far. That is, not as a title for a work of art. They aren't exactly catchy or clever. I would need some more information from Mieke de Wit (the asker) before continuing.

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2013:

United we stand, divided we fall.

The end result would be:

Have money rolling in like waves.

(Have money rolling in like water.)

If you feel like entering it as a separate answer, go ahead.

I need to say that the combination of 'money' and 'waves' doesn't sound ideal either, to my non-native ears.
While 'water' and 'money' can be combined a bit better, so it would seem.

Of course,

'rolling in like waves' is significantly better than 'rolling in like water'.

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2013:

@ Michael It's better that you say it than that I myself say it. :-)

Michael Beijer Sep 1, 2013:

@Barend: Great minds think alike ;-)

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2013:

Michael, we must have posted our comments at about the very same moment.

Michael Beijer Sep 1, 2013:

@Dave: Although I agree with most of what you said, there is sometimes also something to be said for the fresh pair of ears that a non-native speaker can bring to the table. Non-native speakers of English often adopt a more questioning and critical attitude towards their new language, and may consequently spot things that we might overlook due to overconfidence or other reasons.

For example, although you are a native speaker of English, you suggested an answer which is unidiomatic. Barend, on the other hand, who is not a native speaker of English, noticed this and tried to think of a better solution.

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2013:

@ Michael No more room below, if you don't mind I will respond here.

(Many thanks you don't mind. :-))

Many thanks for consulting your wife.
Your & her comment makes sense to me.

For at least 2 reasons.

1) 'rolling' is much more likely to be associated with waves than with water. And it sounds good (but I am not native). I even see them rolling in.

2) What you say seems to be consistent with what I find on Google. Little results for 'rolling in like water'
By the way, 'water rolling in' gives more hits, also on co.uk, but is a different thing because 'like' is absent.
Many results for rolling in like waves.

Michael Beijer Sep 1, 2013:

@Barend: How about slightly altering your answer, until it reads:

money rolling in like waves

Water doesn't really roll, but waves do! Here are a number of examples, plucked from the interwebs:

<tt>rolling in like waves on an abandoned bulk carrier
rolling in like waves on a beach
rolling in like waves at the beach
rolling in like waves from the sea
rolling in like waves on the sand
rolling in like waves of dragon breath all around us
rolling in like waves of desert heat
clouds rolling in like waves over la guardia this morning</tt>

Dave Greatrix Sep 1, 2013:

In all the time I've been a member, I've never dreamt of getting involved in the Eng>Dutch KudoZ - even though I speak Dutch to a near-native standard. The reason being, some of the idiosyncrasies of a language can be totally lost on a non-native speaker, no matter how well they speak it. Which is why answers offered by Dutch natives on the NL>Eng KudoZ, however well intended, sometimes sound "a bit daft" to the English ear and which is why clients much prefer native speakers to translate their work.

Michael Beijer Sep 1, 2013:

@Dave: I am in no way trying to demonstrate my debating skills, as you suggested. I am merely trying to help come up with a decent translation for the asker. You said that if I 'had ever lived in England', I would be bound to have heard of your suggested answer. Well, I have, and I have never heard it used as such. I have also lived in the US for many years. Never heard it used there either. Your argument rests on the importance of knowledge of idioms gained through living in the target language country. That is the reason I mentioned that my wife, who is British, also thinks it sounds wrong. But there is another reason I chose to mention her. Sadly, there are a few misguided souls here on Proz who persist in assuming that I am Dutch (rather than Dutch-American), just because my last name is 'Beijer'. They somehow cannot believe that a person might actually be bilingual. That is, speak both languages ... equally poorly.

This is a discussion area – a place for discussing the question at hand, and that is what I am using it for. Discussing.

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2013:

I prefer talking together towards a solution. Especially when it's a complex issue. And what do you like better, being given a chance to justify your answer or a disagree without any comment?

Discussing may have a number of advantages.

We may learn from each other, we may get to know why someone agrees or disagrees, we don't necessarily have to formally disagree with someone.

No one likes these red signs.

However, nobody here ever seems to try to follow what the other person is saying nor giving a sign that is understood or considered what has just been said.

Although Michael now answered my question about the English equivalent. :-)

Dave Greatrix Sep 1, 2013:

<According to the Van Dale, the correct translation of the idiom 'geld als water verdienen' would be:

❝earn / make big money / a packet / a pile, coin / mint money, coin / rake it in, earn / make money hand over fist❞ >

None of which would be appropriate for the title of the artwork.

My point exactly - let's hear some alternatives, not forgetting the asker's request - the word "water" should be somewhere in the title.

Like I said:


makes money like water


Explanation:
If the word "water" needs to be in the phrase, this is the nearest you're likely to get

Michael Beijer Sep 1, 2013:

@Barend: According to the Van Dale, the correct translation of the idiom 'geld als water verdienen' would be:

❝earn / make big money / a packet / a pile, coin / mint money, coin / rake it in, earn / make money hand over fist❞

Dave Greatrix Sep 1, 2013:

I've been contributing to KudoZ for over ten years now. It used to be that members would "disagree", "agree" or "neutral" an answer, and then propose an alternative instead of focusing their efforts on challenging a proposed answer. The fact is, nobody has come up with any alternatives, none that would fit the brief anyway. All I'm hearing is "yes, but...", "no, but..." and "but my wife must be more British than you..". KudoZ is not intended to be used by members to demonstrate debating skills, it's here to help fellow members get answers - and should be used as such. If my proposed answer is not considered suitable, then let's spend some effort on finding one that is and not wasting that effort on endless criticism when a simple "disagree" will suffice.

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2013:

@ Dave, I don't agree at all.

For many reasons, but I will mention only two.

1) 'A great deal of the Dutch language is made up of idioms.' As we know, a great deal of the English language is made up of idioms as well.
I have here Collins COBUILD Dictionary of Idioms. This is more than 500 pages of idioms and then an idiom like 'make money like water' has not even been included. :-) I find only some 11 other idioms that contain water.

2) I pointed out that 'geld verdienen als water' produced 39.000 Google hits in Dutch. Of course there must be some kind of similar expression in English that produces the same number of hits but not necessarily someone containing water of course.

You Britons would say: 'Making loads of money' for example, only this one is not useful in this specific case.

What is actually the authentic British equivalent for 'geld verdienen als water' ? Thank you.

Michael Beijer Sep 1, 2013:

incorrect idiom (continued again) Notice that there is not one mention of making or earning money (or anything else of value) 'like water'. The correct idiom always seems to relate to spending (or rapid consumption, or abundance), not making, earning, saving, etc.

I therefore think that although some people might use it, it is in fact the wrong idiom.

Michael Beijer Sep 1, 2013:

incorrect idiom (continued) Let's look at all of the examples Oxford provides for 'like water'. I have put a star behind all of the ones where the correct (in my opinion) idiom is used:

– George was spending money like water. ✪
– However, many people, especially the wealthy classes, spend money like water. ✪
– Still, it seeps in like water and before you know it you are drowning.
– The real show takes place in the Festhallen, wherein the beer runs like water and tastes like the nectar of the gods.
– We were in Chinatown with a group of acquaintances and the warm Sake was flowing like water.
– The richest traders of the city gathered at Kaiser Park, and liquor and money flowed like water.
– The town's bars, shops and eating places were packed all day and money was flowing like water. ✪
– Every time I ask for money social services say we're looking after the money because I spend it like water. ✪
– Remember when he spoke of guns and ammunition entering this country like water?
– Dump the currency restrictions and let capital flow in and out of this country like water.
– If spending money like water was the answer to our country's problems, we would have no problems now. ✪

Michael Beijer Sep 1, 2013:

incorrect idiom I just asked my wife, who is very British (http://www.proz.com/profile/1344269 ), and she also feels that 'spending money like water' is the correct idiom and that 'making money like water' just sounds wrong.

Now I know that 'like water' can mean 'abundantly; consumed rapidly or found in great quantity' (see, e.g., http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/like_water), and that Oxford defines 'like water' as 'in great quantities', and that, therefore, logically, 'making money like water' should work. However, it just sounds wrong and I would not use it.

Dave Greatrix Sep 1, 2013:

@Barend There's a perfectly reasonable explanation for that Barend. As we know, a great deal of the Dutch language is made up of idioms. If a Dutch person was told he's not allowed to use a saying during a conversation, he would probably be rendered totally speechless. That is not intended to be offensive, it is a fact - think about it for a moment and I'm sure you'll agree.

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2013:

@ Dave, again, you may be right but I have nothing to go by to confirm it.
I leave this to others.
Somehow, I can't get rid of my suspiciousness.
Also because I can't see why such a well-known expression like 'geld verdienen als water' was not likely to occur on the internet.

In Dutch, Google produces 39.000 hits for 'geld als water verdienen'

Dave Greatrix Sep 1, 2013:

@Barend That doesn't surprise me - it's not as if it's a phrase like "money-back guarantee" or "last chance to take advantage of" - it's more likely to be used during a conversation than in literature.

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2013:

@ Dave, You may be right 'make money like water' is authentic English, only Google does not seem to confirm this.

So, I don't know but I am a bit suspicious about it.

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2013:

Well, most likely this was the inspiration for the artwork.
Probably/possibly he wanted to literally represent the Dutch saying 'geld maken als water' or something.

But that's not problem.
The problem is how can you render the Dutch phrase 'geld maken als water' into authentic English, while maintaining 'water'.

Dave Greatrix Sep 1, 2013:

@Barend This is one case when I feel the amount of Google results are totally meaningless. I have personally heard the expression "he makes money like water" thousands of times.

Michael Beijer Sep 1, 2013:

@Dave: I have a feeling you might just be right there.

Dave Greatrix Sep 1, 2013:

Could it be that the phrase "making money like water" was the inspiration for the artwork? He has in fact made the banknote look like water by tearing it - a sort of non-sexual double entendre..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_entendre

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2013:

If we need to believe Google 'make money like water' occurs in minute amounts :-)

make money like water 23 G-hits
makes money like water 8 G-hits, including Dave's suggestion.
make/makes money like water site co.uk 0 G-hits

It seems to me to be 'literal' translation.

Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 1, 2013:

Or perhaps Have money rolling in like water.

There were no objections when the money was rolling in like water, now all of a sudden you are worried about the impact on downtown crozet.

When (young people) have their first job and have money rolling in, the temptation is to really improve your lifestyle by buying," she said.

Michael Beijer Sep 1, 2013:

Hi Dave Although I have yet to make any money like water myself, I get it now. Sorry, I had only ever heard the other one (spending money like...).

just checked and Oxford says:

like water
in great quantities:
‘George was spending money like water’

Dave Greatrix Sep 1, 2013:

@Michael If you've ever lived in England, you're bound to have.....I "made money like water" in Berlin during the German building boom....

Michael Beijer Sep 1, 2013:

@Mieke: Does it have to be 'verdienen'? If you change it to 'uitgeven', you could translate it as 'spend money like water' / 'spending money like water' / 'spends money like water', etc. (or 'go through money like it's water' / 'going through money like it's water', etc.)

Michael Beijer Sep 1, 2013:

@Dave: Although I have heard of 'spending money like water' (grof geld uitgeven), I have never heard of 'making money like water' in English.