Hannah Geiger (X) Mar 11, 2014:

Interesting I was reading today on Pan Slavism and the Hapsburgs, plus the fact of how important this movement was to Russia, and here is a rather interesting text on President Masaryk
http://books.google.com/books?id=LMXfMoiI2FgC&pg=PA227&lpg=P...

Kirsten Bodart Mar 11, 2014:

having read up on this a little bit it seems that Großdeutsch (greater German) is mainly used to identify the German Reich as it is when all German speaking people are united (in 1939). But it also refers to a coursse of thought in the 19th century which advocated such a Greater German Reich under the leadership of the Habsburg Empire (i.e. Austria). The Alldeutschen on the other hand, advocated also the unification of all German speaking people, but they wanted it under leadership of Prussia (North Germany). Merely logically, this Habsburg Greater German Solution (Großdeutsche Lösung) came to its end when Austro-Hungary ceased to exist after WWI. There was no Austrian Empire anymore, so that side of the answer to the German Question must have faded into the background. However, Prussia was still there and it is no secret that the NSDAP looked largely on Berlin as their capital (although they looked at Linz in Austria too). The Pan-Germans (members of clubs) already existed in the 19th century and had always been more expansionist, militarist and anti-Semitic, just because they looked at militarist Prussia for inspiration. Maybe the addition of 'sentiment' would diffuse the idea of politics behind it a little?

Stuart Hoskins Mar 11, 2014:

Kirsten Czech for “pan-“ is “pan-“ or “vše-“ [“all-“], just like the German. “Velkoslovansky nacionalismus“ [literally Great Slavonic nationalism] doesn’t really exist. We’re just trying to create a Slavonic equivalent of “velkonemecky nacionalismus” [Great German nationalism] to see what it feels like. Personally I think the “great“ sounds a lot more imperialistic than “pan”, but I’m not a native. Thanks for your posts, by the way, they’re very insightful.

Maria Chmelarova Mar 11, 2014:

Stuart/Kirsten thanks to both; and to Kirsten, I must agree with " there are still- Pan-Germans left, who do not want to be called Neo-Nazis".

Stuart Hoskins Mar 11, 2014:

Maria Those are Hannah's comments, not mine. She deleted them, but I thought that's what she was referring to when she wrote "I was talking about answers", so I was just trying to fill you in.

Kirsten Bodart Mar 11, 2014:

the adjective of this philosophy is 'Pan-German' as its Slavic equivalent, I really don't see the problem, unless as I said, Czech makes a distinction.
At any rate, I don't think you can equate the Nazis with the Pan-Germans (as they are called). The Nazist ideology/National Socialism is Pan-German, but Pan-Germanism is not National Socialist. National Socialism grew out of Pan-Germanism, but it is a development of it and not the exact same thing. I bet you there are still Pan-Germans left who do not want to be called Neo-Nazis.

Maria Chmelarova Mar 11, 2014:

To Stuart to your # 2 " correct me if I am wrong..." no you are not wrong, in case as you wrote ..." but the last fan of this was Hitler... " that is correct and who is now ( Neo - Nazis ) ... that is correct too.
My point only is, how to use the word Pan-Germanism (n.) - movement, when " velkonemecka/y, velkonemecky nacionalizmus" is ( adj. ).
Plus as is known Pan-Germanism's origins began with the birth of Romantic nationalism during the Napoleonic wars...why ? , that is more to write... as we need to take in consideration year 1848, Otto von Bismark and etc.,M.

Kirsten Bodart Mar 11, 2014:

As someone in the German-English Kudoz pointed out, there is a slight difference in this Großdeutschtum and Alldeutschtum (http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/history/5495266-... in that the first is slightly more pluralistic than the one that eventually did win the argument. I've done a post-doctorate paper on the development of these two variants, as the Czech Wikipedia entry calls this. If Pan-Slavism is 'velkoslovansky', then I can't see what the probem would be with 'Pan' for the translation of this term. The only question there is is whether Czech makes a distinction between Pan and Great in this case, like the German seems to do. As I said, these two views (the pluralist one and the fanatic one) had battled since the 1850s and primarily during the Interbellum and we know what happened: the fanatic side took the upper hand. Both sought to unite the German peoples to some extent, but Pan-Germanism was more aggressive. The two movements started as a philosophy but developed into political movements. The people that swept Südetenland when it was annexed weren't the non-fanatics at any rate, so Pan-Germanism would definitely fit here, because being pragmatic wasn't even allowed by then.

Hannah Geiger (X) Mar 11, 2014:

to Stuart: No what Maria is referring to is in the notes of my actual answer to the question, at 10:01:36 GMT yesterday

Stuart Hoskins Mar 11, 2014:

Maria Absolutely agree. I don’t think panslavismus = velkoslovansky nacionalismus.

Stuart Hoskins Mar 11, 2014:

Maria Hannah deleted a couple of her discussion posts, so perhaps she is referring to these:
1) “Martine, já jsem ho nevyloučila, viz můj komentář v mém příspěvku. Ale přeci jste tu dost dlouho, abyste těm Kudoz \"hrám\" rozuměl. Někdy je to geniální, někdy debilní, a někdy taky ....:) Prostě se to tazatelce nejlíp líbilo, i tím expansionismem v závorce. V Kudoz pravidlech tomu říkají \"most helpful\" Cheers”
2) “correct me if I am wrong, but the last fan of this was Hitler, is there anyone today (i.e. after WWII)who could freely advocate it other than some neo-Nazis? Surely they are quiet about this in Germany, or are they not?”

Maria Chmelarova Mar 11, 2014:

So, how is that, if Pan-Germanism = velkonemectvti, velkonemecky nacionalizmus or it is a movement/ideology to create a Greater Germany
and then Pan-Slavism = velkoslovansky/ Velkoslovanska risa or it is a movement/ideology when the root of (for both ) is in mid of 1800's, if not sooner...
...and the poit is not ... "who had won the argument
(Kirsten), but what is a word for velkonemecky nacionalizmus or velkoslovansky nacionalizmus and etc.;
Who won the argument is a fact. M.

Hannah Geiger (X) Mar 11, 2014:

Maria Thank you Maria, I was talking about answers from Martin Konig and me, some agree with it. And, sorry for having had expressed myself in a way that was not quite clear, I was aware of it. As you know, you cannot edit in posts.

Maria Chmelarova Mar 11, 2014:

Hannah, with respect ... I am just curious, why you wrote... " Luckily, it doesn't matter that much what you put there, although I do not see a reason for supplying German words.." - that is (the) truth I do not either, supplying with German word,...
and Pan-Germanism is not the word for "velkonemectvi al. velkonemecky nacionalismus. M.

Kirsten Bodart Mar 11, 2014:

On Wikipedia Czech it says: 'Velkoněmecká koncepce byla jedna ze dvou variant sjednocení Německa v letech 1848-1849.' Which Bing says refers to the two variants (großdeutsch - alldeutsch) referred to in the reference below. I would keep it with Pan-Germanism, because essentially (according to Wikipedia in German, referenced) the Pan-German advocates were slightly more nationalistic/fanatic and came together in the Alldeutscher Verband where the großdeutschen were a little bit less fanatic, so to say. The Czech Wikipedia article also metions the notion of 'Maloněmecká' (small-Germany or how to translate it ;)), as opposed to 'Großdeutschland', meaning only Germany and not Austria.
To me, it seems unlikely that the Czech translation would be sloppy, because there was a very sizeable German-Czech bilingual population (the Czech middle class, so to say) at that time, but it could be that they never made a distinction between the 'groß' and the 'all' (partly because they would not have been that much concerned with the more fanatic side, because they were not even in Germany/Austria). The großdeusche side of the argument would have been more relevant (particularly in Südetenland).

Hannah Geiger (X) Mar 11, 2014:

Thank you all There has been an unusual amount of commotion regarding this entry, and, after it has all subsided, I am again going back to my motto: praised be the silent ones, for sometimes to be wise is to be silent.

Hannah Geiger (X) Mar 11, 2014:

Stuart Fascinating discussion from your German>English colleagues. I am just glad that my answer did get a serious consideration from several people. Thanks.

Stuart Hoskins Mar 11, 2014:

Additional suggestions from our German>English colleagues: (1) enthusiasm/agitation/fervour for (a) Greater Germany
and (2) Greater German nationalism (= velkoněmecký nacionalismus)

Martin König Mar 10, 2014:

Trošku si popláču, a budu v pořádku.

Martin König Mar 10, 2014:

Takže můj návrh jste i v souvislosti s následujícím dotazem (http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_czech/tourism_travel/54... naprosto vyloučili? Dobřéééé...

eveleenka (asker) Mar 10, 2014:

I perceive the terms and the entire situation exactly as Stuart described in his post from 12:34. thank you! I might have to just use "Grossdeutschtum"... thanks to everybody for their opinion! ...

Stuart Hoskins Mar 10, 2014:

Vaclav I was thinking the same, but the other way around. The Sudeten Germans were always pan-Germanic. They didn't suddenly become so in 1938. It was only when they were "liberated" from the Czechs that they got caught up in the euphoria of German expansion.

Václav Pinkava Mar 10, 2014:

text jako vodítko 1) Oblast zalila vlna "konkrétní politické vize týkající se konkrétních území v konkrétním čase" ??
2) Oblast zalila vlna "obecnější ideologie".

2 dává smysl.

Hannah Geiger (X) Mar 10, 2014:

To asker Please see addendum to my post. These things are actually one and the same, and I just consider Pan-Germanism linguistically (and historically as well) more appropriate for your text. As to "policy and politics" and the way you differentiate, I believe that such may not actually be the case.

jankaisler Mar 10, 2014:

Německy: Grossdeutschtum, grossdeutschter Nationalismus ...

eveleenka (asker) Mar 10, 2014:

Termín "Pan-Germanism" jsem dlouho zvažovala. Domnívám se ale, že zatímco "pangermanismus" je spíše obecnější ideologie (spadající do "policy"), "velkoněmectví" je konkrétní politická vize týkající se konkrétních území v konkrétním čase (spadající do "politics"). Takže si nejsem jistá, zda by nebyla chyba tyto pojmy ztotožnit.... ?

Moc děkuji za všechny názory!