Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

tel(le)(s) que

English translation:

as

Added to glossary by Tony M
Feb 1, 2015 16:30
9 yrs ago
4 viewers *
French term

telles que

Non-PRO French to English Law/Patents Law: Contract(s)
Maybe it's because it's Sunday afternoon, or perhaps my brain is still addled from completing my tax return yesterday, but I am really struggling to get my head round the meaning of "telles que" in this paragraph of a full-time permanent employment contract (it's under the Retraite complémentaire et prévoyance heading:

Monsieur X ne saurait se soustraire au bénéfice des prestations, ni refuser d'acquitter la
quote-part mise à sa charge, telles que ces prestations et cotisations sont actuellement prévues ou
telles qu'elles sont susceptibles d'évoluer.

The best I could come up with was "insofar as" but I'm not convinced that's the way to go. I'd really appreciate some insights here - thanks in advance.
Change log

Feb 2, 2015 17:37: Yolanda Broad changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

Feb 16, 2015 07:36: Tony M Created KOG entry

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (3): Tony M, mchd, Yolanda Broad

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Proposed translations

+4
22 mins
Selected

as

Whilest I basically agree with Etienne's suggestion, I am just submitting this alternative as a way to enable me to add further explanation, and also offer this minor modification.

Asker, the underlying meaning is indeed 'such as', with a meaning that in EN is often synonymous with 'like' or 'e.g.'

That said, in the specific sentence you have here, you might find it easier to fit in if you keep it simply 'as':

"...[mise à sa charge], as these [prestations et cotisations] are currently provided for or as they are liable to change in the future."

You get the idea, I'm sure...

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Note added at 35 minutes (2015-02-01 17:06:22 GMT)
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Note thet the source text does not say 'dans la mesure où...' or other equivalent expressions the author might have used had that been their inbtended meaning; I really think it's important not to read too much into this, at risk of over-interpretation.

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Note added at 41 minutes (2015-02-01 17:11:42 GMT)
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In response to Chakib's comment, perhaps this will help — a definition from one EN > FR dictionary of 'as such':

= in that capacity à ce titre | comme tel(le) | en tant que tel(le)
= in itself en soi


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Note added at 56 minutes (2015-02-01 17:26:43 GMT)
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Phil is right to take me to task for making the link with 'like' or 'e.g.', which of course are NOT the meaning required here; I am handicapped in any explanation of what Iw as trying to say by the fact that KudoZ rules prevent me from commenting on other answers, hence I cannot draw the comparisons I need to here.

'such as' here means 'in the form / situation, etc. as they are described in...' and so on. This is the standard meaning of 'tel que', it is just sometimes slightly awkward to fit into an EN sentence structure.

Perhaps a simpler example might help to make it clearer:
"... the insurance cover, as detailed in the schedule to this policy document..."
Peer comment(s):

neutral AllegroTrans : Not sure TM, reading the whole of this I think there is a qualifier and not a simple "as"
2 mins
I don't believe so C; there is certainly an argument to be made for 'such as provided for...', but I was trying to get away from the purely 'e.g.' meaning, to make it more like 'as they are set out in...' etc.
agree Chakib Roula : This is what I thought firstly.Then,erroneously added "such" .
5 mins
Choukrane, Roula! Your first instinct was right, I believe / Well, 'such' wouldn't be wrong, if the word order were the right way round ;-) / The expression 'as such' in EN is quite specific, with a different meaning altogether.
agree philgoddard : It doesn't mean "for example".
18 mins
Thanks, Phil! No, sorry, that was my clumsy attempt at explaining which side of the 'meaning divide' we are on here; but that meaning certainly wouldn't fit here, of course!
agree Mark Nathan
5 hrs
Thanks, Mark!
neutral Jennifer Levey : You need to look at the legal significance befored trying to simplify it beyond recognition.
20 hrs
I'm not simplifying, Robin — I am simply rendering a standard FR expression which here doesn't need to have any additional legal significance read into it.
agree Simo Blom
2 days 16 hrs
Thanks, Simo!
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+2
5 mins

such as

in the meaning of' in as far as'
Peer comment(s):

agree Tony M : 'such as' indeed, but not in the meaning of 'in as far as'.
6 mins
agree Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Idem Tony's comment
7 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
13 mins

insofar as

i.e, to the extent that the conditions which follow apply;
Peer comment(s):

neutral Tony M : I don't believe it has the meaning of 'insofar as ' or 'inasmuch as' (which would normally be rendered differently in FR.
2 mins
agree AllegroTrans
9 mins
Something went wrong...
-1
3 hrs

such as; that which

The first time it is translated such as; second time used "that which" sounds better.
Peer comment(s):

disagree Tony M : 'such as' has already been suggested twice; but more importantly, I'm afraid 'that which' simply couldn't possibly work in the #2 position
10 mins
Something went wrong...
+1
8 hrs

given the manner in which

I'm merely digging out the legal argument, regardless of the linguistics :)

Simplifying disproportionately:

Monsieur X ne saurait se soustraire au bénéfice des prestations, ni refuser d'acquitter la quote-part mise à sa charge, telles que ces prestations et cotisations sont actuellement prévues ou telles qu'elles sont susceptibles d'évoluer
--> (+/-!)
Mr. X can't wriggle out of either the indemnities or his share of the cost, given the manner in which we, the insurance company, have covered our corporate backside in the drafting of the contract (which, we assume, Mr. X didn't bother to read before signing it).
Peer comment(s):

agree Andrew Bramhall : That could be a neat way round it;
10 hrs
Thanks.
neutral Tony M : But it's not really anything as complicated as that, Robin: there's no element of 'given' nor of 'the manner in which'. This really amounts to gross over-interpretation, and if this idea were intended, it would be expressed quite differently in FR.
11 hrs
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