Yusef Apr 24, 2015:

OK Mr. Drayton, chacun a son choix, but directorate reminds of a larger organization, FBI and the like have director s.

Tim Drayton (asker) Apr 24, 2015:

There are no precise equivalents in my opinion, as I have said, and the two bodies you have named have very different functions from the defterdarlığı and mal müdürlüğü, and can in no way be considered to be cognates or functional equivalents. Personally, I think "provincial directorate of finance" and "sub-provincial directorate of finance" would make the best translations, although I have made these up myself and they are not used anywhere.

Yusef Apr 24, 2015:

The "net says HMRC as department and e.g Manchester Inland Revenue. Is that right?
I did not mention anybody to be confused, but had to read all messages to get the reason. Yes, why not? Did you now that in Ottoman times defterdar meant finance minister and was member of the divan (cabinet), the first defterdar of a city was was in Istan bul, then all eyalets had one and in republican times all vilayets.

Tim Drayton (asker) Apr 24, 2015:

What is it called in British towns? Good question. Unfortunately, there is no answer. The British administrative system does not resemble the Turkish one in the slightest. If the system in Britain mirrored the one in Turkey, we could easily find the corresponding terms for all of these words. But it is not so simple, hence these discussions, which have a value for those of us who frequently translate texts relating to the Turkish administrative system.

Tim Drayton (asker) Apr 24, 2015:

Dear Yusef, I don't think anybody is confused. No, municipalities, metropolitan municipalities, "beldeler" or province special administrations have nothing to do with the bodies asked about in the question. As you say, this is the organ of the Ministry of Finance at the sub-province (to use my preferred terminology) level. For some reason, our friend Harold wished to extend the discussion to transformations that have occurred in the administrative structure at province and sub-province level in recent years, and why not? So I added to this discussion. This does not mean that we are confused.

Yusef Apr 24, 2015:

Malmüdürlüğü görevleri: tahakkuk, tahsilat, milli emlak ve muhakemat.
In UK its called Exchequer,USA Treasury, Germany Finanzministerium, Malmüdürlüğü represents them in sub-prefectures, defterdar in prefec
tures. But they function as the IRS mainly in collecting taxes. above their tasks as per law are more about collecting than spending (of course employees wages have to be paid). 30 prefectures are büyükşehir and don't have özel idare since the election 2014. But özel idare has not the least in common with the question. On the other hand finances have to do with spending,(budget but that for the ministers and entourage in Ankara. District sounds like mahalle, can you call a small town (like Fethiye) district? What is it called in British towns?

Salih YILDIRIM Apr 23, 2015:

Yes Dear Yusef, I buy your idea completely since there are 2 separate structıures here; one related to Local management and other one is related to Central governmental management. There is a minor misunderstanding.

Yusef Apr 23, 2015:

Özel idare has nothing to to do with maliye bakanlığı. Municipalities -belediye-are completely a completely different than vilayet defterdarlık and malmüdürlüğü, which are part of Maliye bakanlığı and respond in locally to the the vali. Our vilayet (il) organization is more like the French department. Province is more like taşra, areas far from the metroplopoles.I would prefer prefecture, sub-prefecture. You can't call Istanb ul,İzmir, Ankara a province (only ironically) and not all but some beldes became mahalle, those more in vicinity of cities. Belde municipalities had a mayor with a budget, muhtars not. There are no more bucaks (nahiye) in Turkey since a long time.

Harold Lemel Apr 23, 2015:

Yes, that's true that not all municipal areas have been covered by this law... and I certainly didn't intend to twist your words about the il ozel daireler... I guess I wan't as precise as I might have been in making the point about their continued function. Just did a quick check... Really sorry you took it that way --- that I was trying to twist your words. Just trying to be helpful.

Tim Drayton (asker) Apr 23, 2015:

Article 1/5 of Law number 6360: (5) Birinci, ikinci ve dördüncü fıkrada sayılan illerdeki il özel idarelerinin tüzel kişiliği kaldırılmıştır.

Tim Drayton (asker) Apr 23, 2015:

Yes, but not all metropolitan municipalities have been extended to cover an entire province. The statutory basis for this, I think, is Law 6360:
http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/kanunlar/k6360.html
except that this had already been done for Istanbul and Kocaeli.
Please don't twist my words. I didn't say there were no longer any province special administrations - just that they have been dispensed with in those places where the metropolitan municipality has been extended to cover the entire province, with the metropolitan municipality assuming all of its duties.

Harold Lemel Apr 23, 2015:

The İl Özel İdare'ler still seem to be in business...See: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&e...

Harold Lemel Apr 23, 2015:

Seems like things vary a bit from one metro area/province to another...Here is one article from one version of the büyükşehir belediye kanunu...which is something taking shape as we speak..: Bu sınırlar içinde kalan köylerin tüzel kişiliği sona ererek mahalleye dönüşür. Bu şekilde oluşan mahallelerin katılacağı ilçe veya ilk kademe belediyesi, büyükşehir belediye meclisince belirlenir. SEE this link for more than you may ever want to know about this subject: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&e...

Tim Drayton (asker) Apr 23, 2015:

Quarters Sorry, as you say, all villages became quarters (as I call 'mahalle'), not municipalities. Does this mean that all parts of the province are attached to one second-tier municipality or another?

Tim Drayton (asker) Apr 23, 2015:

In eight provinces The situation as I understand it, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that in a small number of provinces (eight I think), the metropolitan municipality has been extended to cover the entire province, and in such provinces, what were formerly villages became municipalities subordinated to the metropolitan municipalities, along with the other second-tier municipalities in the province, and the territory covered by these ex-villages converted into municipalities is now called a 'belde'. I think these provinces also no longer have a province special administration (il özel idaresi).

Harold Lemel Apr 23, 2015:

There have been some major changes in the admin structure in recent years. In the case of metropolitan areas (buyuk belediyeler) , their area of control has been extended greatly. Villages falling within their expanded boundaries are now deemed to be neighborhoods/mahalle'ler rather than villages/koyler...

Tim Drayton (asker) Apr 23, 2015:

belde You are absolutely correct there. I have used 'district' for 'belde' in the past, but given that 'district' is a common rendering of 'ilçe', this is not a good idea. I will put my thinking cap on about that one and come up with something new.

Harold Lemel Apr 23, 2015:

Vay vay... I just noticed going from my small phone screen to the computer that the bucak ,belde comments were yours, Tim. Historically the usages you attribute to those terms may have been correct, but not today. As for sub-province or district both are fine to use.

Harold Lemel Apr 23, 2015:

YesTim...sub-province and district are both correct. It's a matter of preference, as you said and I indicated in my original note.
My previous note was more aimed at the terms bucak and belde as defined by the poster.

Tim Drayton (asker) Apr 23, 2015:

Counter example For a counter example of an official source in which the term 'sub-province' is used, please refer to the following government booklet compiled to explain the administrative divisions of Turkey:

http://www.illeridaresi.gov.tr/ortak_icerik/illeridaresi/mev...

I do not think that there is one correct answer here, and I agree that one encounters the use of 'district'. I would, however, defend my preference for the use of 'sub-province' for two reasons:

1. This term has application in many other countries where the main administrative division is referred to as a 'province' - not everywhere of course, e.g. Canada.

2. By its etymology, the use of 'sub-province' makes it clear that this is the subdivision of a province, while the use of the more vague-sounding 'district' does not make this clear; it also corresponds to the Turkish etymology, i.e. il > ilçe, where the relationship is also readily apparent from the form of the word.

Tim Drayton (asker) Apr 23, 2015:

It comes down to personal preference Well, it just comes down to personal preference, at the end of the day. I will continue to use 'sub-province' for 'ilçe' in my translations. I agree that one encounters 'district', including in official sources. On the other hand, you will find 'sub-province' used in many respectable sources, too - even official ones - and this term is widely used in English for countries whose main administrative divisions are named 'provinces' for the subdivisions of these units. Personally, there are some terms generally used in Turkish official documents that I just think are wrong. For example, I will not use 'Trade Register/Registry' when the term 'Commercial Register/Registry' is used throughout the world.

Harold Lemel Apr 23, 2015:

By the way, the usage I am proposing for administrative divisions can be found in TUIK (Turk Inst of Statistics) documnets/reports and the Devlet Planlama Teskilati

Harold Lemel Apr 23, 2015:

Bucaks actually used to be sub-district administrative divisions, just above village....Belde's are actually semi-rural sub-districts. This may be useful to look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_Tur... The bucak sub-district division is now pretty much defunct ...See...also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucak_(administrative_unit). The usage I am suggesting is based on 30+ years of development work in Turkey (beginning in the 1970's)

Tim Drayton (asker) Apr 23, 2015:

sub-province In my opinion, the term 'sub-province' for 'ilçe' is well-established and used in many respected and also official sources, e.g.:

"In practice, the subdivisions of provinces are sub-provinces (ilçe) and districts (bucak)."

Introduction to Turkish Law by Tuğrul Ansay and Don Wallace
https://books.google.com.cy/books?id=1F5qDu0ILVsC&pg=PA60&lp...

It also makes it clear that it is a subdivision of a province. I also prefer to use 'district' for 'belde'.

Harold Lemel Apr 23, 2015:

Provincial revenue office versus district revenue Your basic idea appears to be right on: See http://www.ekodialog.com/ekonomi_kurumlari/hazine_mustesarli... I would however translate ilce as "district" as it usually is in official publications

ATIL KAYHAN Apr 23, 2015:

Some Zargan Solutions http://www.zargan.com/mobil/sozluk.asp?sozcuk=mal müdürlüğü