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sneddrag
styckningslotten
Sep 23, 2016 08:49
7 yrs ago
Swedish term

fruntimmer

Swedish to English Social Sciences Business/Commerce (general)
This comes from a textbook in consumer behavior, where the authors discuss how values and expressions change over time. As an example, they bring up the word "fruntimmer", which a hundred years ago was a perfectly OK term to use for a woman, but which is now seen as derogatory and not used in polite conversations.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +3 women
4 +1 madam
3 females
4 -3 broad
3 -4 (BrE) hussy > (pl hussies)

Discussion

Anna Herbst Sep 24, 2016:
Deane har förstått rätt En kortfattad förklaring finns i Bo Bergman: Ordens ursprung: Etymologisk ordbok över 2000 ord och uttryck. Se utdrag ur boken på https://books.google.com.au/books?id=x3VhAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT134&l...
Deane Goltermann Sep 23, 2016:
Agree with Tim Seems I have a typo...
Paul Lambert Sep 23, 2016:
You are correct, Tim. Yes, "ett fruntimmer".
Tim Kynerd Sep 23, 2016:
Grammatical gender :-) I believe "fruntimmer" is actually neuter with a null plural ("ett fruntimmer," "flera fruntimmer"). Correct me if I'm wrong.
Deane Goltermann Sep 23, 2016:
My understanding (without having lived through the era) is that historically this term was used pretty normally to refer to 'women' in those times (see https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruntimmersföreningen_i_Helsin... with the caveat that this was in Finalnd), and is now used somewhat derogatorily... as in "women, you can't live with them and ...'
But I have also heard it used as an affectionate term of endearment as in 'min fruntimme sa..." Kind of a working class thing in my experience... Guys at the bus garage when chatting. You might get it (in the US at least) as 'my old lady' in the same situation.
Adrian MM. (X) Sep 23, 2016:
Moderation vs. no censorship I am afraid that ProZ moderators in non-UK countries may find a joke-word offensive and effectively block the discourse of linguistic scholars.
Paul Lambert Sep 23, 2016:
A precaution Discussions like these often take on agendas. We should simply try to answer Ehnsio's question without making a judgment on how appropriate, offensive etc. the word might be,
Christopher Schröder Sep 23, 2016:
I don't see why you need a direct equivalent (if there is one) - why not use the Swedish or go for something equivalent like "colored"?

Proposed translations

+3
11 mins
Selected

women

A less polite word.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2016-09-23 11:25:07 GMT)
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Ie, fruntimmer is a slightly impolite word for kvinnor, (women).
Peer comment(s):
neutral Christopher Schröder : Women isn't a derogatory term. Yes it can be used as such (as can men or indeed any other noun) but it's hardly equivalent to fruntimmer.
54 mins
Thank you Chris. Fruntimmer, nowadays, is slightly derogative and corresponds to using the word 'women' scornfully.
agree Agneta Pallinder : "women" said with a sigh and a shrug of the shoulders corresponds very well to fruntimmer.
2 hrs
Thank you Agneta.
disagree Paul Lambert : I think there is something lost when simply using the all-purpose term of "women" as opposed to some kind of nickname that conveys a certain emotion or disposition.
2 hrs
Thank you Paul -- although I disagree with your disagree.
agree Deane Goltermann : I'll agree here considering the asker's context. See my discussion.
3 hrs
Thank you Deane.
agree Anna Herbst : I agree with Agneta above. It all depends on the way it is said.
19 hrs
Thank you Anna.
agree Michael Ellis : Not easy. I also agree with Agneta's comment.
23 hrs
Thank you Michael.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
-3
3 mins

broad

One way to put it. I know some dames these days take offense to that word. Not a swear word, but not always good in mixed company.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Agneta Pallinder : Wrong pedigree - fruntimmer has virtually zilch sexual connotation. I was thinking of that song in South Pacific about a broad being broad...
2 hrs
I didn't think "broad" did either. I usual think of phrases like "dumb broad" when a woman driver makes a silly mistake on the road. However, I will take your word for it.
disagree Anna Herbst : The way you use "dames" above comes closer to "fruntimmer". It is certainly not a swearword, nor does it have sexual connotations as Agneta has already pointed out.
20 hrs
disagree Michael Ellis : Too US and not broad enough!
23 hrs
Something went wrong...
-4
2 hrs

(BrE) hussy > (pl hussies)

We may need to 'localis/ze'.

US & Can-only = broad (see web ref.)
US + BrE = chick
BrE = (usually an old) biddy: hussy vs. strumpet
IrE/Dublin = moth (pronounced 'mott')
OzE = 'a Sheila'

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2016-09-23 11:29:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

PS I haven't included 'bird' because, to my knowledge, it is a Swinging Sixties term in the UK.
Example sentence:

Hussy 1 : a lewd or brazen woman 2 : *a saucy or mischievous girl* (eg. 'brazen hussy')

Reference:

http://en.bab.la/dictionary/swedish-english/fruntimmer

http://https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/strumpet

Peer comment(s):
disagree Agneta Pallinder : definitely not a hussy
22 mins
I suspect you cannot have been in GB back in the 1950s and 60s when this, even on UK radio & TV, was an 'acceptable' nickname for a woman.
disagree Paul Lambert : Too strong and the wrong connotation.
25 mins
You cannot be from GB if you do not know how the connotation has changed over time.
neutral Christopher Schröder : Did any of these have a "neutral" past?
26 mins
A Sheila used to in Oz...
disagree Anna Herbst : Oxford Dict. An impudent or immoral girl or woman. Origin: Late Middle English: contraction of housewife (the original sense); the current sense dates from the mid 17th century.
17 hrs
Not as used in 1950s and 1960s Britain. Pity you, 'Down Under', don't want to run with the Sheila ball: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110829145905A...
disagree Michael Ellis : Wrong register (and I was in UK in 50s and 60s!)
20 hrs
Then you obviously missed the British radio & TV interviews with novelists Kingsley Amis, Anthony Burgess & Scottish psychiatrist-cum-poet Dr. R.D. Laing where they referred to female co-panellists as 'hussies'.
Something went wrong...
12 hrs

females

I was thinking back in the days of patriarchy, maybe women were occasionally referred to as females in some contexts in a heavily patronising and degrading way?
Peer comment(s):
neutral Michael Ellis : Like 'women' this can also be non-derogatory.
10 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
3 days 23 mins

madam

At least in UK English, I think this would work in a similar way. Although it does of course have other connotations as well. My EN-DA dictionary suggests "shrew" for "fruentimmer", but surely that's too old-fashioned?
Peer comment(s):
agree Kim Kardasho (X) : depends on how it is pronounced in Peckham - on the first or second syllable.
9 days
Something went wrong...
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