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Jul 6, 2018 13:50
5 yrs ago
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French term

se replie

French to English Art/Literary Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting
From an academic article on Giotto, referring specifically to The Dream of Joachim, viewable here: https://www.wikiart.org/en/giotto/the-dream-of-joachim

The writer describes how Giotto's strategy for narrating the apparition of an angel to Joachim is to have it appear to him in a dream. Describing the figure of Joachim, he writes:

"Le corps du voyant se replie et le regard s’apaise."

I am not sure how best to capture "se replie" here. I've thought of "The body of the seer is huddled", as that is how he appears to me, but I'm not convinced.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
Proposed translations (English)
3 curled up?
4 +2 is huddled/hunched
3 +2 folds upon itself
4 doubles over
2 leans in on itself

Discussion

Domini Lucas Jul 7, 2018:
@katsy C'est vrai!
katsy Jul 7, 2018:
@ Domini Yes to both remarks.. Ré economy - which asker will judge - pkus remembering this discussion when looking at these works in future. Also knew J was Mary's father but didn't know that it's yet another story of a miraculous end to sterility. On apprend toujours quelque chose !
Domini Lucas Jul 7, 2018:
@katsy btw, the more I think of it, the more I agree with you about sacrificing economy if the wider context allows it. Not easy to decide that for certain when looking at the painting and one sentence in isolation though. So many more options if head and knees can be included.
Domini Lucas Jul 7, 2018:
@katsy I can see that. Thank you so much for sharing it. Very interesting. Funny that I originally saw a version that included the first sentence but not the rest! (that's where I saw slumped which I still think isn't positive enough for the context). I've also really enjoyed seeing this painting as it was new to me. Beautiful in so many ways. Though I'll never think of it without remembering this discussion!
katsy Jul 7, 2018:
@Domini I am not an expert on Giotto, nor painting in general. However, this link is what made me think of that
https://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/g/giotto/padova/1joac...
It mentions the diagonal between the angel and J, Giotto's habit of using geometrical figures and that in fact J seems to fit into a cube... I still see it as a triangle. And as you look at the painting, you can indeed see a number of geometrical shapes.
Domini Lucas Jul 7, 2018:
sleeping/seated with his head folded on his knees Or onto his knees: I have heard folded used like this but not with body on its own (unless we are talking about working out: eg. knee folds etc, but that's still with a part of the body rather than the (whole) body itself which feels a bit like turning into an ironing board). Knee folds etc are also a very modern concept.

It's bugging me now so have been searching quite a bit and really can't find fold used of the body in this way. More than happy to learn something new, but can anyone back up folds for whole body with any references? I can't find them anywhere I look.

Whether economy of phrase is needed will, I presume on the wider text.
@katsy your triangular observation seems interesting. Has made me wonder if that might be significant to painting process of the time.
katsy Jul 7, 2018:
another idea ...that I have added to my answer: is sunk in sleep, has sunk into sleep. More explicit than "le corps se replie", but it seems to me that what is being sought is an accurate description of the body, and I tend to agree with the criticisms of slump, crouch, hunch, huddle, and I am not terribly happy with folded either, nor curled as the position is so very triangular....
Domini Lucas Jul 7, 2018:
re crouches yes, but we don’t fall asleep crouching. As you say it presupposes action
B D Finch Jul 7, 2018:
Not huddled, hunched, slumped or curled In the painting, Joachim looks relaxed (despite the rather unlikely posture for a sleeper, but perhaps shepherds were masters of cat-napping). It is a balanced, strong, self-contained posture that seems intended to express inner peace and strength; so, it needs to be described in a way that conveys that.
mrrafe Jul 7, 2018:
crouches Yes I think slump implies defeat. Crouch connotes both awe, because it's shielding oneself, and the excitement of an incipient dynamic response as when the cat attacks or a person has been inspired to action. But "is folded on itself" is the most literal translation.
Domini Lucas Jul 7, 2018:
slumped This link https://www.wga.hu/html_m/g/giotto/padova/1joachim/joachi53.... offers the word 'slumped', which would potentially seem accurate but that also has a negative connotation to my ear.
I have mentioned slumped in a discussion entry rather than an answer because, as per my comment on huddled/hunched, his posture seems relaxed to me. However, I am throwing it into the mix, as, despite s'apaise, I don't know whether slumped might fit better with the tone of your wider text.
mrrafe Jul 6, 2018:
suggestion The observer's body is folded on itself... https://ludwig.guru/s/folded on itself

Proposed translations

11 hrs
Selected

curled up?

On the basis that he looks as if he is sleeping and curled up usually reflects a comfortable sleeping position/posture. Of course, it often suggests laying down, however, to my knowledge, one can be curled up sitting etc. This sounds the most natural to me in English.

Interestingly linguee offers lay down for le corps se replie in this link https://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/search?source=auto&q...

Obviously St. Joachim is not lying down in the painting, but I am mentioning it in case it strengthens the argument for moving away from a literal folding or doubling over (i.e. allowing for the inclusion of head leant/leaning on his knees if you are not comfortable with any of the more literal options offered here).




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Note added at 11 hrs (2018-07-07 01:42:37 GMT)
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Perhaps even is curled over or is curled over his knees

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Note added at 22 hrs (2018-07-07 12:45:13 GMT)
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Coincidentally a GR-EN colleague posted the same phrase (different context) in a later KudoZ post. This link comes from links he posted. Describes girl in sculpture (who is 'sitting') as exuding peace and content.

https://psychosomaticallyinlove.wordpress.com/2014/03/15/cur...

Of course, cats and dogs curl up contentedly when they are asleep and humans curl up into the foetal position when sleeping.

I accept though that sometimes curling up (whether or not foetal position is attached) can be linked to trauma or PTSD, so it is not a totally neutral phrase.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+2
5 mins

folds upon itself

This is one possible verdion.
Peer comment(s):
agree mrrafe : I think the passive "is folded upon itself" is more evocative here
6 mins
agree Charles Davis : I think this is the meaning; I would prefer "is folded in on/upon itself".
3 hrs
disagree Ben Gaia : Too literal, not really good English.
4 hrs
neutral Domini Lucas : So sorry to disagree: I just don't think we use folded of a body in this way in modern English. Though I agree that it is literal.
12 hrs
agree B D Finch : Agree with Charles' suggestion of "is folded in upon itself", which is perfectly good English and has the virtue of suggesting a mental/spiritual state, not just a physical one.
21 hrs
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+2
17 mins

is huddled/hunched

I think "folds upon itself" sounds odd.
Peer comment(s):
agree Verginia Ophof
12 mins
neutral writeaway : how can a body huddle?
1 hr
Webster's: Huddle: to curl up, crouch. "Students huddled over their desks."
agree Ben Gaia
4 hrs
neutral Domini Lucas : I think he looks relaxed and huddled or hunched doesn’t suggest that to me. (I find those words have a slightly negative connotation). S’apaise also conveys calm which is positive.
9 hrs
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4 hrs

doubles over

Good old fashioned English for a body folding in upon itself.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Domini Lucas : yes, but it implies doubling over in pain, etc. Literally correct, but doesn't feel right contextually to me. Sorry to disagree.
7 hrs
neutral B D Finch : That makes it sound like he'd been hit in stomach!
16 hrs
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3 hrs

leans in on itself

An idea that came to mind. I would have preferred to say "leaning his head on his drawn up knees" but that is hardly very economical. As a building may lean in on itself because of pressure, here, it is the weight of sleep that makes Joachim assume the "triangular" posture..

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Note added at 1 day 4 mins (2018-07-07 13:54:45 GMT)
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Another idea: the body of the seer is sunk in sleep/has sunk into sleep. More explicit, but I am still searching for a phrase which sounds more authentic
Peer comment(s):
neutral Domini Lucas : I would have gone with 'leaning his head on his knees' (but agree it is not economical - and not literal here). Can't agree with leans in on itself though I like the word leans.
9 hrs
thanks for your comment Domini. Not an easy one - I think, if it were up to me, I might sacrifice economy for a phrase which sounds more authentic
neutral B D Finch : It's important to bear in mind that this is about a painting, not the mechanics of how to assume a pose.//You got me checking up on the meaning of "seer" - thanks!
1 day 17 hrs
Indeed. He ce the second suggestion "sunk in sleep". Snap for the need to check up "seer",!! I was somewhat sceptical when I saw it!
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