Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
Indication Géographique Protégée (IGP) "Canard à foie gras du Périgord".
English translation:
Protected Geographical Indication (PGI): "Foie gras duck from Périgord"
French term
canard à foie gras du Périgord
je traduis actuellement un texte expliquant la qualité du foie gras à travers tout un tas de normes et certifications.
Parmi celles-ci figure l'IGP "canard à foie gras du Périgord".
Quelle est l'expression consacrée en anglais, le savez-vous ?
Merci par avance pour vos lumières,
Santillane
Foie gras controversy | writeaway |
dead or alive? | Daryo |
Oct 24, 2018 10:10: Rachel Fell changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"
Nov 24, 2018 03:40: Daryo changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/1978847">Santillane van-elslande's</a> old entry - "canard à foie gras du Périgord"" to ""Protected Designation of Origin (PDO): \"foie gras duck from Périgord\"""
PRO (1): Daryo
Non-PRO (3): Carol Gullidge, Catharine Cellier-Smart, Rachel Fell
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Proposed translations
Protected Designation of Origin (PDO): "foie gras duck from Périgord"
so it's about products [not live animals]
(1) made from ducks
(2) of the "foie gras" producing variety
(3) entirely breed, ... ...and finally packaged in Périgord
more
https://www.terredesaveurs.com/fr/actualite/canard-foie-gras...
Indication géographique protégée
Version en français du logotype IGP de l'Union européenne.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Logo_IGP.gif
L'indication géographique protégée (IGP) est un signe d'identification de l'Union européenne qui désigne des produits dont la qualité ou la réputation est liée au lieu de production, de transformation ou d'élaboration, mais dont les ingrédients ne proviennent pas nécessairement de cette aire géographique1.
L'IGP est un dispositif légal qui garantit qu'au moins une des étapes (production, transformation ou d'élaboration) a été réalisée dans le lieu affiché par un produit1. Toutes les IGP doivent également répondre « à un cahier des charges précis » mais, contrairement à l'AOP (et sa version française l'AOC), l'IGP ne garantit pas la mise en œuvre d'un savoir-faire reconnu de producteurs locaux ni que ses ingrédients proviennent de la région concernée1.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indication_géographique_protég...
Protected designation of origin (PDO)
Protected designation of origin logo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PDO-Logo.svg
The Protected designation of origin is the name of an area, a specific place or, in exceptional cases, the name of a country, used as a designation for an agricultural product or a foodstuff,
-- which comes from such an area, place or country,
-- whose quality or properties are significantly or exclusively determined by the geographical environment, ------- including natural and human factors,
whose production, processing and preparation takes place within the determined geographical area.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_indications_and_t...
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Note added at 1 day 3 hrs (2018-10-25 11:24:51 GMT)
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sorry
-- which comes from such an area, place or country,
-- whose quality or properties are significantly or exclusively determined by the geographical environment, including natural and human factors,
-- whose production, processing and preparation takes place within the determined geographical area.
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Note added at 6 days (2018-10-30 16:33:44 GMT)
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correction:
Indication Géographique Protégée (IGP): "canard à foie gras du Périgord"
=
Protected geographical indication (PGI): "foie gras duck from Périgord"
Protected geographical indication logo
The Protected geographical indication is the name of an area, a specific place or, in exceptional cases, the name of a country, used as a description of an agricultural product or a foodstuff,
-- which comes from such an area, place or country,
-- which has a specific quality, goodwill or other characteristic property, attributable to its geographical origin,
-- at least one of the stages of production, processing or preparation takes place in the area.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_indications_and_t...
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Note added at 12 days (2018-11-05 12:44:32 GMT)
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correction:
Indication Géographique Protégée (IGP): "canard à foie gras du Périgord"
=
Protected geographical indication (PGI): "foie gras duck from Périgord"
Protected geographical indication logo
The Protected geographical indication is the name of an area, a specific place or, in exceptional cases, the name of a country, used as a description of an agricultural product or a foodstuff,
-- which comes from such an area, place or country,
-- which has a specific quality, goodwill or other characteristic property, attributable to its geographical origin,
-- at least one of the stages of production, processing or preparation takes place in the area.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_indications_and_t...
neutral |
writeaway
: so you're picking up Charles' answer and references and running with it?
4 mins
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I got to this question AFTER Charles removed his answer - never saw it.
Can't know to which extent there is an overlap with the removed answer, but this is definitely MY version, resulting from MY methods, MY OWN interpretation of available data ...
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agree |
Eliza Hall
: Either this or "Perigord foie gras duck" would work. The region can precede "duck," see, e.g. "Perigord goose" here: https://www.foiegrasgourmet.com/en/groliere-perigord-goose-w...
2 hrs
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Merci!
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foie gras duck-breeding from Périgord
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Note added at 30 minutes (2018-10-24 08:45:04 GMT)
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Could "froie gras duck-breed from Perigord" work?
Yes, foie gras is also used in English. The issue is about translating the "product" , I mean foie gras is made from a special kind of duck, meant to become foie gras after force-feeding. And there is a PGI indicating "canard à foie gras du Perigord", therefore that the duck race is for foie gras and comes from Perigord. Maybe just "foie gras duck from Perigord" would work then ? |
disagree |
Carol Gullidge
: the question is not about breeding or the method of farming, but on what to call the type of duck (the product)// yes, I think so! Or simply omit the word "breed". Verity's version sounds fine!
13 mins
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oui, vous avez raison. Could "froie gras duck-breed from Perigord" work?
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agree |
Verity Roat
: Or just foie gras duck from Perigord / Perigord foie gras (duck)
50 mins
|
disagree |
Tony M
: Nothing to do with the action of breeding
2 hrs
|
disagree |
Daryo
: see ref.
5 hrs
|
fattened duck from Périgord
I don't think you should refer to "Périgord duck" as that's a bit misleading. There's no such breed of duck.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2018-10-24 10:50:25 GMT)
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Looks like I can't post a reference entry now, but here's one specifically about the IGP:
http://www.foie-gras-gers.com/foie-gras-igp-sud-ouest.aspx
agree |
ph-b (X)
: We all know what the poor things are fattened for, and your answer is what I thought of when I first read the question, so "agree" from a non-specialist, non-native, for what it's worth.
8 mins
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Thanks. The only time I ever saw it done with my own eyes the ducks were queuing noisily for their turn, pushing others out of the way! But that was a rubber tube rather than a metal one.
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disagree |
Tony M
: This isn't necessarily a duck that's already been fattened.
13 mins
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I take your point, Tony, but they do start very young and they slaughter all unsuitable birds directly after birth. Those are minced for cat food and I don't think any of these ducks that arrive at market have avoided the gavage process.
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neutral |
Daryo
: partly yes, but mostly no - taking into account the preceding part [**IGP**] it's not about live ducks, and using "foie gras" has far more "marketing value" than "fattened" // you will never please everyone - the target market counts.
4 hrs
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I can't disagree with that Daryo, although foie gras actually has massive negatives too in many people's eyes. I just feel that "foie gras duck" is too open to being misunderstood as "duck foie gras"
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Périgord foie-gras fattening duck
It is going to be fattened, but hasn't necessarily been yet. It's a type of duck.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2018-10-24 10:52:39 GMT)
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Please read this French reference very carefully:
http://agriculture.gouv.fr/le-canard-foie-gras-du-perigord-i...
"le canard à foie gras du Périgord.
Afin de défendre la qualité et l’origine des produits issus de palmipèdes à foie gras du Périgord et d’offrir plus de transparence aux consommateurs, des éleveurs, découpeurs et conserveurs de Dordogne se sont regroupés en créant en 1993 l’Association "Foie gras du Périgord". Pour arriver à leurs fins, ils se sont associés à d’autres éleveurs, découpeurs et conserveurs du Sud-Ouest pour mettre en place une démarche de qualité rigoureuse et exigeante. Leurs efforts et leur patience sont aujourd’hui récompensés car ils bénéficient, depuis le 26 juin 2000, de l'Indication Géographique Protégée (I.G.P.) "Canard à foie gras du Périgord".
L'Origine
Les produits doivent être issus de canards élevés et gavés et abattus et découpés et cuisinés et conditionnés en Périgord. Pour cela, un système de traçabilité documentaire complet et performant à été mis en place par l’ensemble des membres de l’Association Foie Gras du Périgord."
The text goes on to make it abundantly clear that we are talking about the fowl used to produice the foies gras, and not that end product itself.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2018-10-24 10:58:03 GMT)
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I live in or near Périgord, I have actually fattened ducks myself, and I work very closely with a number of producers of foie-gras and their professional associations, Chamber of Agriculture, etc.
I also see this label used all the time in butcher's and supermarkets — soemtimes it is even used on 'magrets', to certify that this particular magret does actually come from a proper foie-gras duck, and so isn't just any old duck breast.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2018-10-24 11:01:51 GMT)
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Both Verity and Carole have correctly understood it the same way.
Once we have the meaning correct, then there are various different ways you might choose to express it in EN; I've never personally yet come across any 'official' translation of this term.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2018-10-24 11:29:45 GMT)
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ph-n perhaps has come up with the best solution to the cumbersome wording — simply to leave out the 'fattening'
My only reservation is that some EN-speakers, less francophile than most of us, possibly still think of 'foie gras' as coming from geese (as, for example, I still did back "in the olden days" before I ever came to France), so the connection with ducks might not be immediately apparent; and it may also not be obvious that the specially-chosen fowl are actually actively fattened to make the foie gras — it doens't "just happen"!
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Note added at 4 hrs (2018-10-24 12:23:20 GMT)
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In answer to Asker's question under another suggestion:
"Maybe just "foie gras duck from Perigord" would work then ? "
I don't think so really; the whole point of this IGP is that it's a special kind of duck specific to Périgord — it's a "Périgord duck"; otherwise, it could just be any old quacker that simply happens in this instance to have come from Périgord.
neutral |
writeaway
: Do you have any English refs to back 100% CL? /I've been in the Périgord and have eaten foie gras. This English wording would look extremely odd on a label or in a text.
7 mins
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I doubt an 'official' EN term exists — anyway, my own personal knowledge and experience is enough for me; let others without that direct, practical connection turn to their books. I've been there, stuffed that duck, got the foie-gras.
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neutral |
Sheila Wilson
: But doesn't that say the duck is fattening the fois gras? It sounds an odd word order to me
11 mins
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I think it's clear enough, and the only way to make it succinct; it's like a 'sucking pig' or a 'roasting fowl'. But I've suggested above some other ways it might be expressed? The important thing is first to get the idea right.
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neutral |
ph-b (X)
: Doesn't 'foie-gras fattening' sound a bit pleonastic? Doesn't 'fattening' imply it's about their liver anyway?
51 mins
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Merci, Ph-B ! Simply omitting 'fattening' might be the simplest solution, though not all EN-readers will necessarily understand the connection: why you need special ducks to make foie-gras.
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neutral |
Charles Davis
: Agree with ph-b: just Périgord foie-gras duck. The expression "foie-gras duck" would be understood by anyone to mean a duck specially designed for/adapted to the production of foie-gras. They don't need to know why.
1 hr
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Thanks, Charles! As I have already acknowledged above, this would be an acceptable alternative, though for certain purposes I still prefer my original version.
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disagree |
Daryo
: it's about the label that goes on the final product(s), not with the live duck // something wasn't quite right, until I checked that there is in fact an implied / omitted part: "produits de ...." // see refs.
2 hrs
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No, I'm sorry, Daryon, there is absolutely no doubt about this: it is talking about the DUCK — and thence only incidentally the products; if you lived around this way you'd see it all the time, and it's immediately obvious how it is being used.
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duck foie gras from Périgord
http://www.foiegrasgourmet.com/en/foie-gras-blog/difference-between-duck-liver-and-goose-liver
agree |
GILLES MEUNIER
10 mins
|
disagree |
Tony M
: As has been discussed at length already, this is NOT just about the foie gras — it is in essence about the ducks used to produce the foie gras, or at least the ducks as a source of derviative products.
27 mins
|
disagree |
Daryo
: that would be: foie gras made from duck // here the noun is "duck", while "foie gras" is the adjective => these products originate from ducks "of the foie gras producing variety" / from ducks "reared for the purpose of making foie gras"
2 hrs
|
Reference comments
Foie gras controversy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras_controversy
agree |
Tony M
: I'm sure no-one was under any lingering doubt about that process, which if done by hand is not nearly as cruel as people make it out to be; I know, i've done it.
4 mins
|
neutral |
Daryo
: in which way would this change the translation? If you are die-hard atheist, simply don't touch theology as subject ...
3 hrs
|
dead or alive?
https://www.terredesaveurs.com/fr/actualite/canard-foie-gras...
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Note added at 5 hrs (2018-10-24 13:30:30 GMT)
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the idea that they would be selling live ducks didn't sound right, so I checked ...
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Note added at 6 hrs (2018-10-24 14:38:35 GMT)
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more precisely: the idea that they would using "une Indication Géographique Protégée (IGP)" when selling live ducks didn't sound right
Nothing strange in just selling ducks for fattening / or fattened ducks in itself, it's the combination with "IGP" part that didn't sound right.
Discussion
Protected designation of origin (PDO)
Protected geographical indication (PGI)
Traditional specialities guaranteed (TSG)
and in French:
Appellation d'origine protégée (AOP)
Indication géographique protégée (IGP)
Spécialités traditionnelles garanties (STG)
This is a PGI/IGP, not a PDO/AOP.
The difference is slight; the main one is that PDO/AOP has to be entirely manufactured within the designated region, whereas PGI/IGP need only be partially manufactured within the designated region.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN-FR/TXT/?uri=CELEX...
https://ec.europa.eu/info/food-farming-fisheries/food-safety...
Going back to the peer comment thing for a moment: I think it would be very unfair to suggest that those who agreed with my suggestion were unqualified to do so, or that they were doing so just because it was me. They are all highly competent and reliable colleagues. Presumably they agreed with my argument, but, like me, weren't aware of that crucial fact that undermined it (which is quite easy to miss if you're not already aware of it).
Then again, there is a more destructive move by certain people to use peer comments tactically — often agreeing with any answer, right or wrong, just so as to counter another answer, which might in fact be more correct or pertinent." Or just, shall I add, because they wouldn't be seen dead agreeing - or disagreeing for that matter - with this or that person.
Sadly, I think here you have highlighted a growing problem: people peer commenting for the wrong reason!
Some people, of course, simply don't have the necessary specialist knowledge to peer comment in any kind of authoritative way; and very often, do so simply to ally themselves with this or that person (such as yourself) whom they admire.
Then again, there is a more destructive move by certain people to use peer comments tactically — often agreeing with any answer, right or wrong, just so as to counter another answer, which might in fact be more correct or pertinent. This very much goes against the "presumption of good faith" that is assumed across the whole of ProZ.com.
I'm glad you have come round to seeing this question as several others of us have, and I'm only sorry I was the only one to 'disagree' with your original answer — and I think that's a first, since I know you and I are generally very much on the same wavelength :-) I did rather think I had refuted your original premise by my explanation — but perhaps I was too successful in doing so politely!