Sep 23, 2019 16:07
4 yrs ago
45 viewers *
French term

attaché communal

French to English Law/Patents Law (general) Civil status
This is a French Birth certificate.

The person before whom the document was signed is a Registrar by appointment, but also an "attaché communal"

Any ideas what that is in English?
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (1): Rachel Fell

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Discussion

Lara Barnett Sep 26, 2019:
Council / public services There seems to be a lot of debate over the council vs civil services difference here. I think we need to appreciate that with the difference between these structures (across the two national systems), any words that resemble each other in the languages are not necessarily going to be used for the same service/function etc.
So, what I mean is that you cannot really dispute one or the other being used here.
B D Finch Sep 24, 2019:
@Adrian No room to reply below to your "OK. but do we really need for a sign-off a long explanation of a civil-servant secondment as an NB junior-ranking 'local government. officer'."

A Town Clerk is a senior, not "junior-ranking" local government officer. As there is no direct English equivalent of an "attaché communal", either it needs a rather wordy translation, or it should be left in French with an explanation in square brackets or a translator's note.
B D Finch Sep 24, 2019:
@Daryo This gives better detail about "attachés" https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attaché_territorial . It's not so much a grade as a status, which is also allocated to a particular pay scale (or two). Even if they are directly employed by local authorities, they are subject to national recruitment, career structure, pensions and pay scales and are part of the national civil service as far as those issues are concerned. They are also expected to be geographically mobile if they wish to progress in their careers.
Daryo Sep 23, 2019:
It's a recently created grade for civil servants employed at the level of "les communes".
It's a grade in the hierarchy, not any specific job. Also, these " attachés" are directly employed by these local authorities, they not "detached" from anywhere else.

Le statut de 1952, la loi du 13 juillet 1972, la création du grade d'attaché communal sont autant de réformes visant à ... des collectivités locales accentue notablement le processus d'imitation des traits structurels de la fonction publique d'Etat.

Administration et politique sous la Cinquième République: ...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LWkqAAAAMAAJ&q="attaché ...

to have a better idea of the system:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonction_publique_française

All kind of "attaché" to be found under "Catégorie A type"
Mark Harris Sep 23, 2019:
A similar query Seems like someone asked a query on a similar term, also for a birth certificate. May be of help? https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/other/1157752-a...
AllegroTrans Sep 23, 2019:
Asker Using lateral thinking as to what kind of officials sign birth certificates, and bearing in mind that you are bilingual (UK Eng), what have you considered so far?

Proposed translations

4 hrs
Selected

Council Officer

In UK (and this seems to be the same in Australis, see link) most general council workers are classed as "officers".

This news article, about a registrar, demonstrates how a "registrar" is also an Officer

"COUNCIL OFFICER TAKES NATIONAL TITLE
Darlington's superintendent registrar Anthony Hall was named the country’s REGISTRAR of the year at the annual Local Authority Coordinators of Regulatory Services (Lacors) conference earlier this month."
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/local/darlington/4380...
Example sentence:

"The work of the Council is implemented by COUNCIL OFFICERS - these are staff who are not elected and are not party political."

"Council staff are responsible for providing advice, implementing council’s direction and taking action on council decisions. COUNCIL OFFICERS also provide advice and expertise that help a council to form policy decisions, along with delivering services

Peer comment(s):

disagree B D Finch : I was a council officer for over ten years and can assure you that, unlike an "attaché communal", I was not a civil servant. Difference between a council worker and a council officer: the latter has an administrative and even decision-making function.
13 hrs
agree SafeTex : If "municipal" officer can get 3 agrees, "council officer" does not deserve a disagree. The two terms conjure up the same idea but one is more US and one more GB
2 days 3 hrs
Thank you, my disagree seems to be down to my "peer comment disagree" stalker.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you for this answer which is the one I finally selected. But I also want to thank all the others for their helpful and insightful explanations/suggestions. It is not always easy to make a decision!"
-1
34 mins

city council officer

An "attaché communal" is a "fonctionnaire territorial", that is a civil servant delegated to a local authority. In the UK, civil servants do not include officers of local government authorities. In your case, the person is an officer of a local government (or authority). Since it is "communal", I would translate it in council officer, or city council officer
Peer comment(s):

agree Mark Harris
52 mins
disagree B D Finch : The commune is a local council, which may well not be a city. (The departmental capital I live in isn't a city.) A "council officer" is not a civil servant and is employed directly by the local authority.
58 mins
disagree Daryo : B D Finch has a good point "une commune" may not have a single "city" in it. It's more the equivalent of a "local authority" - a local council
2 hrs
neutral Lara Barnett : I agree with the comments about "City", there is nothing in the French term that suggests this is regarding a City Council.// I meant the "city" part is not relevant.
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

Assistant (UK) Borough or Deputy (US) Town Clerk

Would be useful to know what French term is used for Registrar so we - pace Daryo - can eliminate (UK) Superintendent Registrar as an option.

Otherwise, in the UK as opposed to many US Federal States, a Town Clerk is, in my experience, often an autocratic, administrative post distinct from a Register (not Registry) Office Superintendent.

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Note added at 4 hrs (2019-09-23 20:39:24 GMT)
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Bath, Maine, USA and not England: 'Birth records are available at the municipal clerk's office where the child was born'
Example sentence:

New York State marriage licenses may be obtained from the Town Clerk's office and can be used anywhere in the State of New York.

Peer comment(s):

neutral B D Finch : The point of the source term is not the function fulfilled by the person concerned, but their employment status, which is that of a civil servant on attachment to a local authority. Why "town clerk"? http://www.portlandtowncouncil.gov.uk/parish-clerk.html
13 hrs
OK. but do we really need for a sign-off a long explanation of a civil-servant secondment as an NB junior-ranking 'local government. officer'.//Town Clerk had been prefaced with the US - not the English Home Counties - overbearing equivalent.
neutral AllegroTrans : I both agree with BD and say that, once again, you are wrongly trying to mushroom terms like this into the UK or USA systems
1 day 20 hrs
Something went wrong...
+3
21 hrs

municipal officer

This is what I usually use. Pretty simple.
Peer comment(s):

agree Eliza Hall : Yes. This is generic enough to refer to a status or grade (as opposed to a job title, which attaché communal is not), while giving the gist of the meaning to the EN reader.
1 hr
agree Ph_B (X)
1 hr
agree Cyril Tollari
6 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
1 hr

civil servant seconded to the commune [local authority]

See page 170 of "Democracy and Decentralisation in South Asia and West Africa: Participation ..."
By Richard C Crook, Richard C. Crook, James Manor, Fellows of the Institute of Development Studies James Manor
https://bit.ly/2kWaaGD

The Government and Politics of France
By Andrew Knapp, Vincent Wright
https://bit.ly/2mffVPC
"territorial civil service, creating the grade of administrateur territorial at a ... Servants of the state were also seconded to local authorities, particularly the regions, ... "

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Note added at 17 hrs (2019-09-24 09:57:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

http://www.onisep.fr/Ressources/Univers-Metier/Metiers/attac...
"Urbanisme, finances, ressources humaines, animation... la fonction d'attaché territorial peut s'exercer dans un grand nombre de domaines et revêtir des aspects très différents. Ce fonctionnaire de catégorie A peut travailler dans n'importe quelle collectivité territoriale : conseil général ou régional, municipalité, établissement public... et a souvent la charge d'une équipe ou d'un service. Durant sa carrière, il doit faire jouer la mobilité hiérarchique et géographique pour avancer en grade et en salaire.

Pour accéder à ce métier, il faut réussir un concours, accessible à partir d'un niveau bac + 3 ou équivalent. Dans certains cas, le diplôme peut être remplacé par de l'expérience professionnelle. Le concours peut être préparé dans un Ipag (institut de préparation à l'administration générale). Après la réussite au concours, le futur attaché a 3 ans pour trouver un poste. Une fois recruté, il devient stagiaire et reçoit une formation adaptée à son poste, à l'Enact (École nationale d'application des cadres territoriaux) à Angers, Montpellier ou Nancy."

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Note added at 18 hrs (2019-09-24 10:13:38 GMT)
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As clarified by the above note, the attaché is attached to a local authority, rather than seconded to it, because they have no home base that they are seconded from. However, unlike a council officer (fonctionnaire communal), they are expected to move between local authorities and their training is centralised and nationally organised.

So, I revise my answer to:
civil servant attached to the commune [local authority]


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Note added at 18 hrs (2019-09-24 10:32:36 GMT)
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https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attaché_territorial
"En France, les attachés territoriaux sont des fonctionnaires d'un cadre d'emplois de catégorie A occupant des emplois de cadres intermédiaires.

Ce cadre d'emplois comporte les grades d'attaché territorial, d'attaché territorial principal, directeur territorial (en voie d'extinction) et d'attaché hors classe..

Ils sont appelés à assurer des responsabilités dans des secteurs très divers, notamment ceux de l’administration générale (ressources humaines, finances, marchés publics...), de l’action sanitaire et sociale, de l’informatique, de l’animation.

Ils exercent leurs missions au sein d'une collectivité territoriale (commune, département, région) ou dans l'un de ses établissements publics. "

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Note added at 2 days 19 hrs (2019-09-26 11:56:17 GMT)
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@Asker
Bear in mind that the average council officer is not an "attaché communal".
Note from asker:
Thank you BD Finch for all your explanations, and also to all who have contributed to the discussion and made cogent distinctions. However this answer is too cumbersome and I am likely to select "council officer" after waiting a little longer
Peer comment(s):

disagree Daryo : see refs.
1 hr
I think that the only change that I should make is to change "seconded" to "attached". This is a civil servant, not a local council officer, though they are attached to a local authority.
neutral Ph_B (X) : "seconded" would be the translation of détachés or mis à disposition.
15 hrs
See note above.
Something went wrong...
5 days

local-government officer

Communal refers to local and an attaché is a fonctionnaire. That is, according to The Council of Europe French-English Legal Dictionary, it's a local-government officer.

SOURCE: The Council of Europe French-English Legal Dictionary by F. H. S. Bridge, Council of Europe
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Reference comments

3 hrs
Reference:

Le grade d'attaché communal ...

Le statut de 1952, la loi du 13 juillet 1972, la création du grade d'attaché communal sont autant de réformes visant à ... des collectivités locales accentue notablement le processus d'imitation des traits structurels de la fonction publique d'Etat.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PuoqAQAAIAAJ&q="attaché ...

fois qu'un maire ou un président d'établissement public procède à la nomination d'un attaché communal recruté à l'issue d'un des trois concours prévu à l'article 4 ci-dessus, il peut décider d'intégrer dans un second poste d'attaché soit : Un chef de bureau en fonction à la date ... Les agents intégrés en application des articles 18 et 19 ci-dessus sont reclassés dans le grade d'attaché communal de 1"°

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=q0rBTIxXYMsC&q="attaché ...

Les discussions relatives à plusieurs projets et d'abord à la création du grade d'attaché communal sont donc activement ... qui ne sont pas négligeables, une réflexion plus hardie doit être menée sur l'avenir de la fonction publique locale.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=z-Bj91o5BRMC&q="attaché ...

more

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q="attaché communal" grade d...
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree AllegroTrans : Yes, always start with facts rather than trying to mushroom terms like this into one's own country system. Vive la différence.
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
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