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Apr 27, 2020 17:34
4 yrs ago
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Spanish term

los de razón

Spanish to English Other History California History
This is a phrase that appears in a historical narrative. The author is telling the story of how four Native American tribes would attack the settlers of Alta California. I'd like to know what the term "los de razón" could mean within the context.

Here is the full sentence:
"Estas cuatro familias de indios muy a menudo peleaban entre si mismos, pero de cuando en cuando se unian para atacar a los de razon." (No accent marks written in original document.)

Thank you...
Proposed translations (English)
3 +2 the civilized people
2 +10 "men of reason" ("Westernized" peoples, "Westerners") //non-indigenous peoples
2 +2 The whites
3 the real enemies

Discussion

Sofia Bengoa Apr 30, 2020:
Queridos todos, aplaudo vuestra investigación y vuestras aportaciones a este hilo, sobre todo porque mi respuesta, la primera, fue excesivamente espontánea a la vista del desarrollo de la pregunta, cosa que no esperaba. Lo dicho, enhorabuena a todos.
Toni Castano Apr 28, 2020:
@Robert Thanks a lot (again) for your always keen input. I have just given my supporting vote to Chema´s answer since I firmly believe he´s definitely on the right track. I just would like to point out again that it´s necessary to clarify what time period Alison´s book deals with since there are clear shifts in the meaning and perception of the source expression depending on the historical time frame.
Robert Carter Apr 28, 2020:
@Toni Some great points made in that reference, Toni, and perhaps worth entering as a reference entry to give them more prominence? It's clear that the term has more to do with the way of life of "los de razón", especially as settlements in the area grew, with influxes of Christians first, but then also, I would imagine, people of other religions too. Thanks!
Toni Castano Apr 28, 2020:
About Barbara Voss About the author (she can be considered a highly qualified expert on the issue just judging by her impressive curriculum and experience on the matter):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Voss
Barbara Voss (born 1967) is an American historical archaeologist. Her work focuses on cross-cultural encounters, particularly the Spanish colonization of the Americas and Overseas Chinese communities in the 19th century, as well as queer theory in archaeology and gender archaeology. She is an associate professor of anthropology at Stanford University.
Toni Castano Apr 28, 2020:
Barbara Voss (Stanford Un.) on "los de razón" (3) From Alta California´s founding, the military settlers –most of them descended from Christianized Indians and formerly enslaved Africans in the interior provinces- shared the common status of gente de razón for legal and religious purposes (Haas 1995:2). Significantly, however, in Alta California, the meaning of gente de razón shifted to indicate “not native Californian”. For example, in 1814, the Franciscan priests at Mission San José stated the “the only two castes we know of here are the gente de razón and Indians (Weber 1993:328). Although in theory Alta Calfornia´s native populations should have been granted de razón status when they accepted Christianity, in practice the difference between gente de razón y gente sin razón became synonymous with the distinction between colonizer and colonized, between “civilization and savagery” (Haas 1995: 31). Referring to all native Californians, Christians or not, as gente sin razón served to deny the rights and rational capacity of Alta California´s indigenous population (…)
Toni Castano Apr 28, 2020:
Barbara Voss (Stanford Un.) on "los de razón" (2) (…) Those who refused conversion were considered “sin razón” (also called gentiles), unwilling to hear the gospel. Neophytes were also cathegorized as “sin razón”; as recent converts who had not fully mastered Catholic doctrine, they had the same legal status as children. To achieve a de razón status, baptized Indians were expected to accept Christianity fully and to adopt colonial language, lifeways, and mannerisms. Gente de razón status held secular importance for Christianized Indians, low-ranking castas, and free Africans: only gente de razón were permitted to own land, participate in local governance, enter into contractual agreements, and enlist in the military.
Toni Castano Apr 28, 2020:
Barbara Voss (Stanford Un.) on "los de razón" (1) The information contained in the following link shows unmistakably how important it is to conduct an in-depth research before posting an answer when it comes to terms and expressions that might appear to be accesible and easy to comprehend at first sight, but are not that easy at all. This is a good example of what I´m saying.
https://books.google.es/books?id=S8dtSpZ7vRMC&pg=PA102&lpg=P...
The Archaeology of Ethnogenesis: Race and Sexuality in Colonial San Francisc
Race and Sexuality in Colonial San Francisco
Barbara L. Voss
“Self-identity fascination”: Gente del Razón, Hijos del País, and Californios
(…)
In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, missionaries in the interior provinces of New Spain adopted the term of “de razón” and “sin razón” to classify Native Americans according to the Indians´ relationship with the Christian faith.
Toni Castano Apr 28, 2020:
@Robert, Chema et al. I´m working on an addition to my answer. The topic is far more complex and interesting than it might appear at first sight.
Robert Carter Apr 28, 2020:
@Chema Hi Chema, that's exactly my feeling too, although I didn't find any specific references to Christianity vis a vis "hombres de razón", I felt it was likely to be denoting the difference between those of "reason" and the so-called "heathen," not that of skin colour. There is certainly a racial aspect to it all, but it was all couched in this language of civilization, Christians vs. heathens, civilized people vs. savages, and the idea of conversion to become Christian and civilized, hence the Spanish missions.
Chema Nieto Castañón Apr 28, 2020:
The civilized people / The Christians The concept "gente de razón" is a reference to "the Christians", which for them at the time was equivalent to "the civilized people". It would include, other than white Spanish and non-white Spanish-descent Christians, non-hispanic, non-white-descent Indian christians. And so it is definitely not a reference to "the whites". For them Spanish there was not really a racial boundary and Christianity was fully embedded in their concept of "civilization"; anyone Christian, no matter the race, would be "gente de razón", "civilized people".

que dificultaron grandemente la conversión de aquellos en gente civilizada, o gente de razón, 
como decían los españoles.
https://www.academia.edu/24243683/los_antiguos_californios_l...


As for translation, I would go with "the civilized", "the civilized people", "the Christians", or maybe even with "the civilized Christians".

Even though I basically agree with Robert, I believe "westerners" or even "non-indigenous" would be misleading here. "Westernized" might work though, although to my Spanish ears an explicit reference to either civilization or Christianity would make a better fit.
Robert Carter Apr 28, 2020:
@Muriel "it's also true that American Indians referred to settlers as "paleface" and "white men" for many generations"
I certainly wouldn't argue otherwise, but my point is that this is a Spanish-speaking narrator, and whether such person is in fact one of those earlier Hispanic settlers or is referring to the later "white" settlers. If the narrator is referring to the former, it would perhaps be both misleading and even anachronistic to translate this as him calling his fellow settlers "white," don't you think? Indeed, even the term "Mexican" is an anachronism before at least 1810, if my memory serves me. Accordingly, the translator might be wise here to italicize the term "men of reason" and add an explanatory footnote, as did the author of the reference I provided.
In any case, it'd be good to have more context.
Muriel Vasconcellos Apr 28, 2020:
Native American vs. American Indian In case anyone thought I was making a mistake when I wrote 'American Indian', that's the name that they prefer. See, for example: https://www.nativetimes.com/index.php/life/commentary/11389-...
Among other quotes from the site:
"One elderly Lakota man from the Standing Rock Sioux Reservation said recently, "If some Indians want to be called Native Americans or Natives, let them be called that, but I was born an Indian and I shall die an Indian."
"So if you travel to any Indian reservation out west you will soon discover that nearly all of the indigenous people refer to themselves as "Indian," especially the elders who are still fluent in their Indian language. As Chief Oliver Red Cloud said a few years before he died, 'I am Lakota and I am Indian.' "
Muriel Vasconcellos Apr 28, 2020:
@Robert You make a good argument about Christianity being the "razón." I hadn't thought of that aspect. Still, it's also true that American Indians referred to settlers as "paleface" and "white men" for many generations.
Robert Carter Apr 28, 2020:
@Muriel My thinking here is that this is perhaps a Mexican criollo/mestizo narrating the account (who were among the first colonists of the Alta California area in the 18th century, something you yourself may know a lot more about than me, being from that area).
I think it's possible those settlers may have referred to themselves as "hombres de razón" in a nod to their Christianity, in contrast to the pre-Hispanic "herejes," rather than as "whites." Indeed, those settlers may not have considered themselves significantly different to the indigenous peoples in terms of their skin tone.
Muriel Vasconcellos Apr 27, 2020:
'white settlers'? I agreed with Robert because he provided the best link to explain the meaning of the term (which I didn't know). As for the translation, I don't see anything wrong with 'white settlers'. Using 'white' picks up some of the hubris in "de razón" without being too offensive. It recalls the expression 'paleface'.

Proposed translations

+2
14 hrs
Selected

the civilized people

The civilized; the civilized people; the Christians; the civilized people (the Christians).

As per Discussion.
I was going to simply agree with Robert (westernized) but I feel an explicit reference to the civilized or to the Christians does convey more faithfully what "(gentes) de razón" actually means -or meant.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 ore (2020-04-28 08:09:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I think it is rather relevant to note here the different concept of man, religion and civilization itself that the Spanish did share (from the XVth to the XIXth century) with Anglos or French. The very naming "gentes de razón" is rather defining; someone de razón literally means with understanding, with high knowledge, substance or good grounding. And this meant for them to be in the world, to know and acknowledge western civilization, and obviously enough to be Christian. Contrary to Anglos and French, anyone would be acknowledged as "de razón" (and so as "one of us") as far as they would turn Christian and acknowledge western (Spanish) civilization.
Well, all this to insist on the relevance to explicitly state "civilized" or "Christian" when translating "(gentes) de razón".
Peer comment(s):
agree Robert Carter : Yes, "Christianity" I think is the unstated premise of this term, so "civilized" to me works perfectly. "Razón" brings to mind the "word of God," at least to me, though I couldn't find specific references to it.
7 hrs
Thanks a lot, Robert, for all your insightful comments -as usual, BTW ;)
agree Toni Castano : Tras haber leído varios fragmentos del libro de Barbara Voss, creo que tu respuesta es la que más se acerca al concepto "los de razón", si bien hay matices según el área geográfica y el período histórico. En todo caso, tu planteamiento es el más preciso.
8 hrs
Muchas gracias, Toni; los matices que apuntas en las referencias de B. Voss son realmente interesantes -y atinados.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you to everyone for your thoughtful responses. I feel that I could go with either men and women "of reason" (with reason referring to Christianity/Catholicism/the idea of being more "civilized") or simply choose the word "civilized," which I am going to do in this case. The narrator of these journals is a Californio...thus, he considers himself not be what he calls a "Yankee" settler but one of the earlier Hispanic inhabitants of Alta California....and thus, a more "civilized" person than the "Yankees" or the Indians. He generally regards the native Indian populations with contempt, so I think it will be most appropriate to choose the word "civilized" here, as that's now he sees himself and his compatriots. Lots of cultural levels to unpack here, obviously. Thanks again to everyone."
13 mins

the real enemies

I guess it refers to those the Indians had legitimate reasons to attack,
Something went wrong...
+10
19 mins

"men of reason" ("Westernized" peoples, "Westerners") //non-indigenous peoples

Low confidence rating because I'm not quite sure how to translate this, but it refers to "hombres de razón", i.e., those of European descent as opposed to the indigenous peoples. You could perhaps go with "non-indigenous," "colonists" or "settlers".

"The expression "hombres de razón" was often used in the colonial period as shorthand for those of European descent, though it referred technically not to race but to degree of Westernization/Hispanization", as the quote from the prologue of Relación de Michoacán illustrates."
https://tinyurl.com/yc8qaknq

Peer comment(s):
agree Toni Castano : This is also possible, Robert. I´m not sure at all. // True, Robert, but bear in mind that the normal register of the time was to use the "whites". We don´t know when the book was written and by whom. We only see "historical narrative" in the query.
3 mins
Thanks, Toni, yes, although I wanted to avoid "whites" because I think it might be misleading or even anachronistic. I think it may in fact mean, euphemistically, "Christians," and by extension, native-born converts (mestizos).
agree philgoddard
9 mins
Thanks, Phil.
agree patinba : Non-indigenous is good
37 mins
Thanks, Pat.
agree Lydia De Jorge
1 hr
Thanks, Lydia.
agree Micaela Ruiz
2 hrs
Thanks, Micaela.
agree Muriel Vasconcellos : I'm wondering if 'white settlers' would work. Since "de razón" already implies hubris, it would be no less offensive to use 'white'.
4 hrs
Thanks, Muriel. I get your point, but my hesitation to use "white" is more that it may be misleading than anything else.
agree tempusername
10 hrs
Thanks, Justin.
agree neilmac : White man nowadays speak with snowflake tongue... :)
12 hrs
Thanks, Neil. I'm fairly certain it doesn't specifically refer to "whites" though.
agree Victoria Monk : I was thinking 'Settlers' as this encompasses all non-native folk who 'settled' in the Americas
17 hrs
Thanks, Victoria. "Colonists" would seem more fitting than settlers to me, as I saw some references to indigenous settlers in that area. I prefer Chema's "civilized people" TBH.
agree Stephen D. Moore : I'm afraid this strikes me, too, as the most likely meaning.
20 hrs
Thanks, Stephen. I think with "civilized people," Chema has nailed it to be honest.
Something went wrong...
+2
22 mins

The whites

The author might probably mean the „whites“, either settlers, soldiers, etc., at any rate white people in contrast to the Indians (indigenous peoples).

The missing accent should not surprise you as there are no accents at all in your paragraph. :-)

Correct spelling:
"Estas cuatro familias de indios muy a menudo peleaban entre sí mismos [“sí mismas” would be the correct form], pero de cuando en cuando se unían para atacar a los de razón."

http://aleph.academica.mx/jspui/bitstream/56789/25172/1/37-1...
LAS IDEAS RACIALES DE LOS CIENTÍFICOS 1890-1910*
(...) de un lado a los tarahumaras y del otro a los de “razón”, los blancos.

Not a wild guess, but not sure at all either.
Peer comment(s):
agree Muriel Vasconcellos
4 hrs
Thank you, Muriel. I´ll probably add a note.
agree neilmac
12 hrs
Gracias, Neil.
Something went wrong...
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