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May 6, 2020 19:26
4 yrs ago
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French term

Engagement de responsabilité

French to English Law/Patents Law (general) Responsibility/tax payment postponement
Context:

"Le Gouvernement a indiqué fin mars 2020 que certaines entreprises demandant à bénéficier du report des échéances fiscales ne devaient pas verser de dividendes.

C’est le fameux « Engagement de responsabilité pour les grandes entreprises bénéficiant de mesures de soutien en trésorerie »."
Proposed translations (English)
3 commitment to be held liable // liability commitment
3 +5 commitment
4 +1 liability commitment
3 +1 (Incurred) Liability (Statement/Notification/Reminder)
3 (Incurring of liability) 'standing up for major corporations'

Discussion

Michael Grabczan-Grabowski May 9, 2020:
@ph-b I agree with you that a word-for-word translation wouldn't be ideal in this case (as in many cases in translation.)

If the sentence "Engagement de responsabilité pour les grandes entreprises bénéficiant de mesures de soutien en trésorerie" appears as a title of an article, then you could translate it in a way that still deals with the topic but not in too much detail:

Examples:
"Corporations benefiting from cash-flow support measures subject to accountability."
"Corporations benefiting from cash-flow support measures to be held accountable."
"Corporations to be held accountable for cash-flow support measures they receive."
"Responsibility placed on corporations benefiting from cash-flow support measures they receive on pain of liability." (More accurate, but very wordy)

And then elsewhere in the text:
"accountability expected of corporations benefiting from the cash-flow support measures"

It's difficult to come up with one single translation that encapsulates all the concepts expressed by the original French. I think various options can be workable, depending on the rest of the text and how you can describe the concepts in a more roundabout way.
ph-b (X) May 9, 2020:
Michael, Regarding your article, the commitment you refer to ("this commitment" in the text) actually refers to the undertaking not to do this or that... which appears in the previous paragraph. Nothing to do with "committing to be held liable". As for being well-written, perhaps so, but surely going back to the original, official text, incl. its language, is a safer way of working, as translators, than relying on comments from an indirect source.
Michael Grabczan-Grabowski May 8, 2020:
Consideration Has any of us considered that perhaps the original vagueness of the French was on purpose? Perhaps all the options above are implied in the expression engagement de responsabilité.

Perhaps the equally vague term "liability commitment," should apply then, as it could encompass the three points I made in my previous post. See the link https://cms.law/en/fra/news-information/covid-19-liability-c...

Here is some relevant information from the article:
"Non-compliance with commitments by the company
In the event of non-compliance with commitments, the company will not be able to benefit from a government guarantee for any loan it concludes with its bank. The Minister will not sign an individual decree allowing that guarantee to be granted and it is stipulated that the bank would be entitled to require the company to repay the entire principal amount. In that situation, a company which has requested an extension of tax and social security deadlines would also be subject to late-payment supplements applicable in the event of non-payment of taxes and contributions, in accordance with tax and social security legislation. ..."
Michael Grabczan-Grabowski May 8, 2020:
@Adrian I agree about the difference between pour les entreprises as opposed to des entreprises.

The vagueness of the expression engagement de responsabilité is what's causing the confusion here. Who actively makes the engagement and what kind of responsabilité? So far, we've come up with 3 possibilities:

1. It's the large companies' commitment, imposed by government (indicated by pour as opposed to des), to be socially responsible when they request extensions of tax and social security deadlines or a government-backed loan by (i) not paying dividends in 2020 and (ii) not buying back shares during 2020.

2. It's the liability, imposed by the government, that large companies incur when they choose to request extensions and get a government loan, since if they don't follow the rules, they would have to immediately pay social security contributions or deferred tax payments, and the loan would cease to benefit from government backing.

3. It's the commitment undertaken by the French government to support large companies to help them with their liquidity issues during the crisis.
Adrian MM. May 8, 2020:
@ Safetex As Ph-B intimates, it is the Government that IMO 'engage sa responsabilité' *envers* les grandes entrprises. If the(se) latter do not pay any dividends to shareholders, then there is no prélèvement forfaitaire mobilier therefrom as in ACT - advance corporation tax of old in the UK and that used to be deducted on account of the company's 'mainstream' corporation tax liability as well as of the shareholders' income tax liability. As a result, the Government has to stand in for the shortfall and revenue hole.

I foolishly made an assumption (mistaken again) that everyone would realize that it is the Gouvernement that is incurring a 'commitment'.
ph-b (X) May 8, 2020:
commitment Correct me if I'm wrong, but a commitment is sthg that you decide to do of your own free will. This is not the case here: if you accept that money from the govt, you're not freely deciding you won't give it to your shareholders, you're actually saying that you know that you must not do that and that if you do, you are liable as in votre responsabilité envers le gouvernement est engagée.
ph-b (X) May 8, 2020:
engagement de responsabilité is not quite the same thing as engagement à se comporter de façon responsable. Not a native speaker splitting hairs here - there is a real difference: engager sa responsabilité means that you become liable, that you'll have to face the consequences (e.g. these pénalités de retard de droit commun mentioned in my quote above) if you do something that you know is wrong (like giving out govt money to your shareholders when you've been told not to). This is a legal obligation that is binding - you've been warned. Committing to behave responsibly is a different matter: you're not obliged to, you just decide that you will without anyone demanding that you do. The French would not have used responsabilité on its own in this case, but more sthg like appeler à un comportement responsable, faire appel à la responsabilité des entreprises or words to that effect. And so I agree with all the answers that include "liable/liability".
SafeTex May 8, 2020:
@Adrian Hello

The first part says it all.

Le Gouvernement a indiqué fin mars 2020 que certaines entreprises demandant à bénéficier du report des échéances fiscales ne devaient pas verser de dividendes.

From this alone, it is clear that it is the companies who have to promise not to pay out dividends (leur engagement au gouvernement).

Regards
Adrian MM. May 8, 2020:
Engagement de responsabilité pour & not des ... Thanks Michael for the input.

Please note, re my 'unique dissent', Prof. Wade's point in his intro to a standard UK constitutional & admin. law textbook 'all (majority-consensus) debate and dialogue can be misguided and misleading'.

Please also note again the preposition: Engagement de responsabilité *pour* les grandes entreprises and not *des* grandes entreprises, namely reversing the meaning to the latter vs. the Government being held liable-
Michael Grabczan-Grabowski May 7, 2020:
@Adrian Yours is a unique idea in this discussion. Let me rephrase your suggestion in a way that I understand:

The French government is incurring the financial liability to help large companies get by "during these unprecedented times."

Your use of the word "liability" is in the accounting sense, i.e. the French government undertakes to shore up the cash to help the poor, helpless corporates. Considering governments like to make themselves look good, it's not the worst idea, but helping corporates isn't a good look to the gilets jaunes, either.

As much as I like the angle, as nobody else got it (I think), I strongly suspect it's not the intended meaning here, especially after reading other commentators' feedback (including that of Mr. Torpedo himself.) It seems to be more about the role that large companies also have to play in acting responsibly for the good of all (and wouldn't that look good to the public!).

They refer in various instances to where the emphasis is on the expectation of social responsibility (the good of all), as opposed to the financial liability incurred by the government. Responsabilité is just such a darn flexible word in French.
Adrian MM. May 7, 2020:
Pledge is my idea & responsabilité *pour* Safetex:

1. 'The word "pledge(s)" has now also crossed my mind ...'

No it hasn't, but - as sometimes happpens - it is a false memory from skim-reading of my own answer that had been torpedoed by a disagree, again possibly on a skim-reading and misinterpretation of the full French quote.

My answer: '......Otherwise, incurring of liability in an accounting or legal sense or an underwriting *pledge* in insurance.'

2. '....it would have been interesting if someone had put up "corporate social responsibility" as a contender at least' - wrong way round IMO. It is, as I read it, the Gouvernement in the first para. that 'takes the rap' *pour* for or on behalf of major corps. to fill in on the cashflow support measures and the corporation tax shortfall caused by certain businesses not paying any dividends to shareholders on a *report des échéances fiscales*: a hold-over of the due dates for tax payment.
Michael Grabczan-Grabowski May 7, 2020:
@ SafeTex "Pledge" is an interesting contender, although, to my ear, it's usually used in the context of raising money for aid or for a cause. It also doesn't especially evoke the sense that there are consequences for not playing by the rules.

At the moment, my revised translation of the phrase taking all the feedback into account would be the following:

Commitment of accountability for large companies benefiting from cash-flow support measures.

or

Commitment to accountability on the part of large companies benefiting from cash-flow support measures.
SafeTex May 7, 2020:
@ Michael and all Hello

Yep, I agree that there is probably not a single right answer here but it would have been interesting if someone had put up "corporate social responsibility" as a contender at least. In French, it's normally "responsabilité sociale des entreprises" but I guess we could take "Engagement de responsabilité" as a short form for "Engagement de responsabilité sociale des entreprises"

The word "pledge(s)" has now also crossed my mind and I see that "pledge of responsibility" and "responsibility pledge" get quite a few hits.
Michael Grabczan-Grabowski May 7, 2020:
@ 4KF and SafeTex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_social_responsibilit...

I initially liked the idea of "corporate social responsibility," but as set out in the Wikipedia article, it refers more to "corporate self-regulation" and that which forms part of a "corporate ethic strategy."

It generally aligns with "actions that appear to further some social good, beyond the interests of the firm and that which is required by law."

In the present case, the French government will penalize large companies if they don't play ball, by making them pay back the support funds, as well as potentially charge penalties and interest.

It's for the part that I put in bold that I feel that "liability" is involved, as it goes beyond merely behaving well or acting responsibly. A company firing all its low-level workers during the COVID-19 pandemic while paying its management the same salaries is a matter of "behaving badly" or "acting irresponsibly," but there are no penalties for this under law, thus no liability.

In all honesty, I think there is more than one way to translate this that will convey the useful meaning of the term. There is no monopoly on translating this in only one particular way
4KF INTEGRO PVT LTD INTEGRO May 7, 2020:
Corporate responsibility
SafeTex May 7, 2020:
@ all Hello

thanks for picking up on my discussion remark with such insights and references.

I'm not sure that "penalties" are involved as much as a "reimbursement" of what a company received if they don't play ball.

I also wonder if "undertakings" can fit the bill rather than "commitments" . "Liability" is a non-starter for me but I think that most of us probably now agree on that.

Regards
ph-b (X) May 7, 2020:
That proverbial horse's mouth says: Engagement de responsabilité pour les grandes entreprises bénéficiant de mesures de soutien en trésorerie... En cas de non-respect de cet engagement, et notamment d’une décision des organes d’administration de l’entreprise qui ne serait pas conforme à ces règles, les cotisations sociales ou échéances fiscales reportées ou le prêt garanti par l’Etat devront être remboursés avec application des pénalités de retard de droit commun. " ( https://www.economie.gouv.fr/files/files/PDF/2020/covid-faq-... ). I originally thought the French govt meant "commitment to act responsibly", but the fact that pénalités de droit commun will follow, indicates to me that a bit more than mere moral commitment is involved and tilts the balance in favour of holding the companies legally responsible./PS: Just to add that this doc from the French govt's Ministry of Finances is dated 5th May, 2020. Horse's mouth, hot from the press, etc...
Daryo May 7, 2020:
quote from a French government paper:

Engagement de responsabilité pour les grandes entreprises bénéficiant de mesures de soutien en trésorerie

Une grande entreprise qui demande un report d’échéances fiscales et sociales
ou un prêt garanti par l’État s’engage à :

- ne pas verser de dividendes en 2020 à ses actionnaires en France ou à
l’étranger (hors entités ayant l’obligation légale de distribuer une fraction
au cours de l’année 2020) ;

- ne pas procéder à des rachats d’actions au cours de l’année 2020.

Pour les groupes, cet engagement couvre l’ensemble des entités et filiales
françaises du groupe considéré, quand bien même seules certaines de ces
entités ou filiales bénéficieraient d’un soutien en trésorerie.

https://www.experts-comptables.fr/sites/default/files/assets...

Clearly the "commitment" is to "ne pas verser de dividendes en 2020" and "ne pas procéder à des rachats d’actions" - to abstain from some specific actions.

Doing so would be seen by the state as "faire preuve de responsabilité" / "avoir le sens des responsabilités" OIW showing that they are "acting responsibly" and deserve state aid.
Michael Grabczan-Grabowski May 7, 2020:
@Daryo In that case, "Accountability on large companies benefiting from cash-flow support measures" would work, not so? It avoids having to do the mental summersaults on figuring out how to fit "commitment" into the picture in English.

By the way, what would your suggestion be to translate the following sentence?
Engagement de responsabilité pour les grandes entreprises bénéficiant de mesures de soutien en trésorerie.
Daryo May 7, 2020:
As to what "responsabilité" does mean here here is an explanation straight from the horse's mouth:

Dividendes: Bruno Le Maire appelle les entreprises à faire preuve de responsabilité

Faute de pouvoir leur interdire par voie légale de verser des dividendes à leurs actionnaires, le ministère de l’Économie entend renvoyer les entreprises, en capacité d’en distribuer, à leurs responsabilités. «J’appelle les entreprises, et notamment les grandes entreprises à avoir le sens des responsabilités et faire preuve de justice», a confirmé vendredi Bruno Le Maire, le ministre de l’Economie.
En l’état actuel, rien n’empêchera donc les entreprises qui ont fait de bons résultats en 2019 de gratifier leurs actionnaires.
https://www.lefigaro.fr/social/dividendes-bruno-le-maire-app...

To me this sounds like "expecting a responsible behaviour" from big companies.
Daryo May 7, 2020:
what kind of "responsabilité"? "Engagement de responsabilité" can be interpreted in several ways.

engagement = here it's the big companies that make a commitment as in: "Les grandes entreprises s'engagent à ..."

... de responsabilité = these companies make a commitment to some kind of "responsabilité", no doubts about that, (and by the way that part shouldn't be omitted otherwise "commitment" is left a bit vague)

Surely enough, any dictionary would give you the meaning of "being liable" - only small fly in the ointment, here it fits like a square peg in a round hole, or to put it bluntly HERE giving that meaning to "responsabilité" would lead to a pure unadulterated real-life nonsense.

Companies are "liable" for not respecting their obligations whether they made a "commitment" to that or not, that kind of "commitment" would be utterly pointless, especially when dealing with the state.

An illustration of that principle: if you get stopped by the police for driving over the speed limit, whether you ever made a "commitment to be liable for driving over the speed limit" or not will make no difference at all / would be completely irrelevant.
Michael Grabczan-Grabowski May 6, 2020:
@ SafeTex Hi SafeTex,

That's an interesting insight. So perhaps something like corporate responsibility or corporate accountability on large companies benefiting from cash-flow support measures?

The only issue with is that it sounds like something they merely should espouse, similar to the concept of corporate responsibility. A company isn't necessarily forced to espouse a sense of corporate responsibility, on pain of liability (as in the present case). If large companies benefiting from these cash-flow support measures don't follow the relevant rules, then they will be obliged to repay them and incur penalties, plus interest.

In the sense that you suggest, it sounds more like the sense of it should be done out of the common interest and not that it must be done; otherwise, there will be penalties. To me, it seems more like an obligation on their part. This is why I suggested that they agree (or commit) to be held liable for breaking the rules in exchange for receiving the cash-flow support funds.

In short, if you take the money, you promise (commit) to follow the rules; otherwise, you agree that you'll be punished (held liable).
SafeTex May 6, 2020:
what does the Frnech really mean Hello

Although I have not been able come up with an expression with the right register, the French for me is closely related to "chacun prend ses responsabilités" and so is much more about "you can't have your cake and eat it" or "everyone is expected to do their bit"
For that reason, I just don't feel that any of the suggestions so far are quite right.

Proposed translations

1 hr
Selected

commitment to be held liable // liability commitment

Here is a well-written article about this subject, which I'm sure was translated from French:

https://cms.law/en/fra/news-information/covid-19-liability-c...

Here's a part of the text that's relevant to the meaning:

"If the company fails to comply with this commitment, the social security contributions or deferred tax payments will have to be paid immediately and the loan granted to the company will cease to benefit from government backing."

Alternatively, it could be something like "commitment to be held liable," as it relates to the fact that such companies requesting government assistance will be held liable for not complying with the commitment and would, consequently, have to repay the cash benefits they've received, plus penalties and interest.

Here are my two options for the translation of "Engagement de responsabilité pour les grandes entreprises bénéficiant de mesures de soutien en trésorerie.":

Commitment for large companies to be held liable for benefiting from cash-flow support measures.

or

Liability commitment for large companies benefiting from cash-flow support measures.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2020-05-06 21:50:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Another option:

Commitment for large companies to be held accountable for benefiting from cash-flow support measures.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : it's not that kind of "responsabilité" // the state can hold them liable for whatever they've done wrong whether they like it or not => "commitment" to be liable or not is simply irrelevant - HERE "responsabilité" means "responsible behaviour"
26 mins
In this case, large companies requesting assistance from the government make the commitment to be held liable for not following the rules, so your interpretation is incorrect. It is not merely about responsible behaviour, because penalties are involved.
agree philgoddard : You know why I'm agreeing...
4 hrs
Yes, I do. Much obliged! ;-)
neutral ph-b (X) : disagree with commitment (they don't choose to be held liable), but agree with liable/liability.
1 day 12 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+5
15 mins

commitment

I think this is all you need: commitment mean assuming responsibility.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 41 mins (2020-05-06 20:07:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"undertaking" would fit too.
Peer comment(s):
agree DB-9
59 mins
neutral Daryo : I would add "... to responsible behaviour" (i.e. not using state aid to distribute it as dividends) // they could have "commitment(s)" to all sorts of others goals - quality of products/services, protection of workers, of the environment etc etc
2 hrs
agree philgoddard : Maybe "Commitment by large companies receiving cash-flow support".
2 hrs
agree AllegroTrans
2 hrs
neutral SafeTex : While the government is asking them to make a committment, this does not capture the real sense of engagement de responsibilité which is closely related to "chacun prend ses responsibilités"
3 hrs
agree Joshua Parker : I'm with Daryo on this one. Here I think it just means "commitment to act responsibly" (by not paying out dividends if they've been given a tax deferral).
6 hrs
agree EirTranslations
15 hrs
neutral ph-b (X) : See discussion.
1 day 14 hrs
Something went wrong...
2 hrs
French term (edited): Engagement de responsabilité pour les grandes entreprises

(Incurring of liability) 'standing up for major corporations'

Journalistically, this would be a low-level register of 'picking up the tab' or 'vouching for' major corporations.

Otherwise, incurring of liability in an accounting or legal sense or an underwriting pledge in insurance.
Example sentence:

American Taxpayers Increasingly Picking Up the Tab for Unpaid Corporate Taxes

UNDERWRITING PLEDGE FORM n All commitments and payments are due in full no later than 30 days prior to the event

Reference:

http://eng.proz.com/personal-glossaries/entry/2186263-engagement-de-responsabil

http://iate.europa.eu/search/standard/result/1588801264085/1

Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : it's not that kind of "responsabilité"
46 mins
Yes, it is 'vouching' as in guaranteeing > pour les grandes entreprises bénéficiant de mesures de *soutien en trésorerie *, plus there is a misreading of the preposition in Engagement de responsabilité pour les as *des* grandes entreprises.
agree ph-b (X) : with "incurring of liability"/The cos' liability, not the govt's.
1 day 11 hrs
Thanks de novo et merci de nouveau! There seems to be some confusion over the difference between Engagement de responsabilité *pour* and not *des* grandes entreprises.
Something went wrong...
+1
10 hrs

liability commitment

A commitment is fine, but it may shirk "responsabilité" if you need to be more accurate.
Example sentence:

...a liability commitment would only come into force if the author has knowledge of the [...]

Reference:

https://www.linguee.com/english-french/search?source=auto&query=liability+commitment

Peer comment(s):
agree AllegroTrans
5 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
2 days 13 hrs

(Incurred) Liability (Statement/Notification/Reminder)


Colleagues keep wondering about the nature of that engagement and won't get away from a literal translation (“commitment”), nor can they work out how to pair up that “commitment” with responsabilité. There are also comments about how vague the French is.

Engager sa (la) responsabilité (de…)/engagement de responsabilité is a set phrase ; as such, a word-for-word translation is likely to lead to an unsafe translation.

With this in mind, contrast the "commitment" answers above with this:
la responsabilité de l'État ne saurait en aucun cas être engagée
>
"the liability of the State can in no way be incurred"
(https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:...

or
La responsabilité de la Société ne peut/saurait être engagée au titre de…
>
“The Company shall not be held liable for…”
I made that one up. Is it wrong?

The French Ministry of Finances clearly states in the doc I referenced in my first discussion post ("That proverbial horse's mouth says:") that should a company not abide by the conditions laid out for these avances de trésorerie, incl. in particular committing not to pay dividends to its shareholders (my rough summary), then said company will be held liable for this “breach of contract”, as it were, and will be made to pay for this.

See also my second discussion post about the language used. That language is not vague at all.

And so the answer to Yves’s question (engagement de responsabilité) is simply “Liability”. This is an article title I often see in contracts written in English and while I usually only translate it as Responsabilité, Engagement de responsabilité would fit just as well. And we all know that it often takes French more words to say something than it does in English.

Engagement de responsabilité
>
“Liability”

This to me is the right answer in terms of meaning; the only reason why it’s only CL3 is that I can’t see how to work it into your sentence. Unless someone comes up with a convincing solution incorporating the idea of "holding/held/holds liable" (perhaps Adrian’s “incurring of liability” as in the EU example above?), would it not be acceptable to write sthg like this:
C’est le fameux « Engagement de responsabilité pour les grandes entreprises bénéficiant de mesures de soutien en trésorerie »."
>
“It’s that famous (?) liability statement/notification/reminder (warning?!) to corporations that benefit from cash-flow support measures.”
Peer comment(s):
agree Michael Grabczan-Grabowski : Great analysis, ph-b. I agree that it is a liability, however, "statement," "notification," or "reminder" would be too clunky or impractical to use throughout the text. See my comment in discussion.
9 hrs
Something went wrong...
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