Glossary entry (derived from question below)
English term or phrase:
renounces probate
French translation:
renonce à agir en qualité/renonce à sa qualité d\'exécuteur testamentaire
English term
renounces probate
Il s'agit d'un testament et ces mots se trouvent dans le contexte qui suit :
"I appoint my wife xxx the sole executrix of this Will but if she predeceases me *renounces probate" or dies without having proved my Will then I appoint ..."
Merci beaucoup
Probate renunciation (GB) | Sandra Mouton |
Proposed translations
renonce à agir en qualité/renonce à sa qualité d'exécuteur testamentaire
Les testaments, pas mon truc (trop flippant), mais... ?
« Renouncing probate means refusing to act as executor. »
Eliza Hall ci-dessus
« Fill in either form PA15 or PA16 if you want to give up your legal responsibility and role permanently (also known as ‘renunciation’) to apply for probate to manage the estate of someone who died as either:
an executor named in their will or their spouse or civil partner acting as an administrator. »
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-pa15-apply-f...
(sans oublier de mentionner la contribution de Sandra Mouton en bas de page)
« M. Y... était recevable à agir en qualité d’exécuteur testamentaire »
https://www.courdecassation.fr/jurisprudence_2/premiere_cham...
« Une fois qu'il a accepté sa mission, l'exécuteur testamentaire ne peut plus y renoncer. »
http://leparticulier.lefigaro.fr/jcms/p1_1694862/heritage-l-...
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Note added at 1 day 21 hrs (2020-12-04 14:30:57 GMT)
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Oups, oublié de citer le commentaire d'AllegroTrans : « "renounce probate" which is vague and presumably means "renounce executorship" »
agree |
Germaine
1 hr
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agree |
Daryo
: better formulation
6 hrs
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agree |
François Tardif
1 day 12 hrs
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renonce à (ou refuse) l’homologation
"Probate": "homologation, authetification, validation" Dict. juridique fra-ang Harrap's
Et fiche 2 de Termium
https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2alpha/alpha-fra.html?l...
Merci beaucoup François ! |
neutral |
Germaine
: C'est peut-être effectivement couper les coins ronds, alors je me rends à certains arguments compte tenu de ce que je vois d'habitude et de la traduction que je ferais moi-même de la phrase.
46 mins
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Merci Germaine!
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disagree |
Daryo
: you can not "renounce" (and even less "refuse"!!) s.t. that you have to apply for to get it // you can only "renounce to apply" for it
6 hrs
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Daryo, you may be right sensu stricto, but you have to translate what is in the ST – renounces probate – which implies, even in English, that the wife renounces (to apply) probate…
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disagree |
Eliza Hall
: This is not what "renouncing probate" means. https://www.legalchoices.org.uk/dictionary/renouncing-probat...
20 hrs
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renonce/r à la représentation successorale
I have a niggling suspicion that the 'chain of representation' to take out probate or 'extract a grant of probate' - namely the widow lines up with other beneficiaries . is being subtly alluded to here, namely la représentation and not the 'drot successif' > right to inherit vs. inheritance duty as such.
*Remember: use plain legal French and keep it SIMPLE*
si une procédure judiciaire est ou était en instance, apportez les documents correspondants (p. ex. "Probates" – certificat d'homologation)
La représentation successorale permet de déroger à la règle de la priorité selon le degré en permettant à un héritier d'un degré plus éloigné
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/1102157-sans-prendre-qualité.html
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english-to-french/law-general/2382022-grant-of-representation.html
neutral |
Daryo
: your refs DO NOT prove that there are any cases where you wouldn't have to apply to obtain probate in England ans Wales
25 mins
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Wrong AGAIN: next-of-kin, 'intermeddlers' & even creditors can be cited: www.lexisnexis.co.uk/legal/guidance/probate-actions-citatio... cf. Q 50 www.sra.org.uk/globalassets/documents/sra/sqe1-functioning-...
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agree |
AllegroTrans
: This seems to be closer to the intended meaning of "renounce probate" which is vague and presumably means "renounce executorship"//strange how your sensible suggestion is apparently falling on some deaf ears
34 mins
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Thanks, Chris. Keeping it 'simple' is tongue-in-cheek because this area of law isn't at all....
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disagree |
Germaine
: AT a raison sur : renounce executorship. Mais la "représentation successorale" n'a rien à y voir: c'est un mécanisme d’exception qui déroge à la dévolution successorale. // You extrapolate. This makes no sense in this sentence.
10 hrs
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It is in E&W where the order of executorship passes down a chain of representation. YYou should know this if you have been a probate practitioner.
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renonce à / s'abstient de demander les lettres d'homologation (du testament)
You will have to apply for probate, and the Court is the one that can refuse to grant probate.
IOW whatever a superficial grammatical analysis would suggest this is what makes real-life sense:
*renounces probate" = do not apply for probate
or
dies without having proved my Will = do apply for probate but dies before obtaining probate.
The most literal interpretation - "if my wife obtained probate but just decided to sit on it doing nothing" is certainly not impossible (people do have all sorts of weird atitudes) but I very much doubt that such an eventuality would ever be part of a testament.
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Note added at 20 hrs (2020-12-03 14:05:20 GMT)
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What is probate?
Probate explained by probate solicitors
Probate Definition: In England and Wales Probate is the word normally used to describe the legal and financial processes involved in dealing with the property, money and possessions (called the assets) of a person who has died.
Before the next of kin or Executor named in the Will can claim, transfer, sell or distribute any of the deceased's assets they may have to apply for Probate.
When Probate has been granted through a Grant of Probate or Letters of Administration the next of kin or Executor can start to deal with the deceased person’s assets in accordance with their Will. If the deceased died without a Will the law will determine who should receive everything, see probate without a Will for complete details.
https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/probate-solicitors/what...
OTOH
Form
Forms PA15 and PA16: Give up your role to manage the estate of someone who's died
Give up your role permanently as an executor or administrator to get probate to manage the estate of someone who’s died.
Published 19 July 2018
Last updated 18 February 2020 — see all updates
From:
HM Courts & Tribunals Service
Documents
Form PA15: give up your right as an executor
PDF, 60.8KB, 3 pages
Form PA16: give up your right as an administrator
PDF, 60.1KB, 3 pages
Details
Fill in either form PA15 or PA16 if you want to give up your legal responsibility and role permanently (also known as ‘renunciation’) to apply for probate to manage the estate of someone who died as either:
an executor named in their will or
their spouse or civil partner acting as an administrator
If you’re an executor
You can give up your responsibility to manage the estate so that another executor can apply for probate instead.
If you’re a spouse or civil partner
If you’re a spouse or civil partner you can give up your rights as an administrator to get letters of administration so a child of the person who died who is over 18 can get it instead.
This does not give up your claim to the estate if you’re a named beneficiary.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-pa15-apply-f...
this form is primarily about "renouncing to apply" - not applying at all, not exercising your right to apply, but it's doesn't seem to exclude the possibility of changing your mind later.
A Grant of Representation is a legal document that you may need in order to deal with a deceased person’s Estate and wind up their affairs. If the deceased left a Will, this is called a Grant of Probate. If they didn’t leave a Will, this is known as a Grant of Letters of Administration.
https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/media-centre/articles-m...
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Note added at 20 hrs (2020-12-03 14:13:43 GMT)
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more
https://www.gov.uk/applying-for-probate/print
Comme il s'agit d'un contexte britannique la réponse me semble adéquate au contexte |
agree |
François Tardif
: Ok, but then you are explaining more in the TT than what is in the ST…
54 mins
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Merci!
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agree |
Gladis Audi, DipTrans
11 hrs
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Merci!
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neutral |
Adrian MM.
: 'the "probate" is NOT something that the authorities are going to go chasing you to take -..' wrong /OTOH/. Cut to 'citations'. The Probate Reg. of the High Ct, can 'cite' others, like intermeddlers & creditors, to take out probate if the widow doesn't.
11 hrs
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As far as I could find you have to apply it's not coming to you on its own. OTOH people changing their mind after obtaining probate doesn't seem to be so unusual, if there is even a form for that.
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disagree |
Eliza Hall
: Renouncing probate means refusing to act as executor. It doesn't have to do with the will or the letters. Someone else will become executor. https://www.legalchoices.org.uk/dictionary/renouncing-probat...
13 hrs
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"Renouncing probate means refusing to act as executor" - agree with that - and it's a better formulation / so what's the practical consequence of that? you don't exercise your right ***to apply for*** probate Where is the fundamental difference?
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disagree |
Germaine
: Agree with Eliza. Et désolée, mais je ne vois pas la différence entre "renoncer à l'homologation du testament" et "renoncer à demander (en FR) un certificat d'homologation". So, since you disagree with François...
20 hrs
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Reference comments
Probate renunciation (GB)
agree |
ph-b (X)
1 day 3 hrs
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Discussion
What matters now is that ph-b's traduction seems to be the best so far, and not in any need of improvement.
The citation is a matter of probate practice and works like a court summons. If you have been a Licensed Probate Practitioner in E&W, you will know there is a disparity and chasm between textbook definitions and London Probate Registrar practice. 'Remember' applications for caveats entered to stop the probating of a Will. Textbooks say they cannot be entered during a testator's or testatrix's lifetime or, otherwise, on oral evidence alone and without any documentary proof, but in practice......
I pray that I am not flogging a dead horse.
Very often initially I haven't got a clue what a term could mean and then, most often than not, after some research I do find what it means in the specific context.
NONE of your references are about courts acting on their initiative / ex officio there is always another interested party (the citor) that is initiating the whole process.
So, we are back to square one - no court will be chasing you on their own initiative, but some dissatisfied other party may start chasing you using Courts as a mean for that end.
Anyway, call that "semantics" if you want, but all that won't change that the best clue for a good translation is in fact in
"Renouncing probate means refusing to act as executor"
which would include BOTH not bothering to apply for probate AND obtaining probate but not doing anything with it.
'The purpose of a citation is to: *direct* the named executor to take the grant of probate or renounce his/her entitlement allow the court to direct that the grant of probate should be issued to the next of kin or beneficiary if the named executor does not respond' https://www.thegazette.co.uk/all-notices/content/103565
Your own reference shows 3 types of "citations"
Citation to accept or refuse a grant
Citation to take probate
Citation to propound a Will
In ALL 3 CASES it's NOT really the Court chasing you on their own initiative to force on you probate, it's the Court acting following the action taken by some interested other party (the citor). And whatever is the result of that action, the "winning" party will ONLY be granted the right to apply for probate, nothing more.
IOW even with this business of "citations" in relation to probate, it still stands that you won't ever get probate if don't apply for it, and you might have to fight for the right to apply for it.
If a Court are after you for unpaid debts, you can't really say that it's the Court that is chasing you (like they spotted there's an unpaid debt and they took the initiative to make you pay)- it's you creditor chasing you using Courts as a mean.
Same way in this "citations" it's some other interested party that is chasing you, NOT the Court on its own initiative.
Elle permet aux descendants d'une personne d'hériter à sa place parce qu’elle n’est pas présente dans la succession.
L’article 752 du Code civil dispose par ailleurs que : « La représentation a lieu à l'infini dans la ligne directe descendante ». Cela signifie qu’elle peut se faire en ligne directe (grands-parents, enfants, petits-enfants) ou en ligne collatérale (frères, sœurs, oncles, cousins). Les descendants incluent les enfants du défunt et leurs descendants ainsi que les frères et sœurs du défunt et leurs descendants.
Avec la représentation successorale, le descendant d’un héritier représenté peut bénéficier d’une part d’héritage qu’il n’aurait pas eu en l’absence de représentation...
https://www.heritage-succession.com/article-representation-s...
…enjoignant de soumettre le testament à l'homologation, ne demande pas l'homologation ou ne présente pas le testament et ne renonce pas à ses fonctions d'exécuteur… défaut de demander l'homologation ou de renoncer aux fonctions d’exécuteur testamentaire…à soumettre le testament à l'homologation ou à renoncer aux fonctions d'exécuteur testamentaire…
https://www.canlii.org/en/nb/laws/stat/rsnb-1973-c-p-17/late...
http://www.polyreg.ch/bgeunpub/Jahr_2009/Entscheide_5A_2009/...
Héritage de Johnny Hallyday : la Bank of America renonce à son mandat de trustee
https://www.toulouse7.com/2018/11/27/heritage-de-johnny-hall...
[Si]…l’exécuteur testamentaire ne peut être désigné ou, après l’avoir été, renonce à son mandat (ou est destitué) avant d’avoir accompli…
https://books.google.ca/books?id=1KG1DwAAQBAJ&pg=PT66&lpg=PT...
De toute façon, dans la vraie vie, est-ce qu'on ne traduirais pas cette phrase par:
Je nomme mon épouse, (...), seule exécutrice du présent testament, mais si elle me prédécède, renonce à [son] [ce] mandat [d'exécutrice] ou décède sans avoir soumis mon testament à l'homologation, je nomme alors...
It just means that you were appointed executor, but you decline to act as executor.
https://www.legalchoices.org.uk/dictionary/renouncing-probat...
https://willshub.com.au/renouncing-probate/
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/To renounce probate