Apr 2, 2004 17:03
20 yrs ago
English term
IanW (X)
inversion question
English
Other
General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
A few months ago, an American colleague with whom I worked on a regular basis claimed that a construction which I was given to using was old-fashioned and rather obsolete.
My version: "We are looking for new students", said the headmaster.
His version: "We are looking for new students", the headmaster said.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with my version - in fact I think it reads far better than the other one. Is this a US vs. UK/Ireland difference, is it down to opinion (and opinionated colleagues), or have I been reading too much Jane Austen?
I'd appreciate any comments, particularly from fellow native speakers on both sides of the pond.
All the best
Ian
My version: "We are looking for new students", said the headmaster.
His version: "We are looking for new students", the headmaster said.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with my version - in fact I think it reads far better than the other one. Is this a US vs. UK/Ireland difference, is it down to opinion (and opinionated colleagues), or have I been reading too much Jane Austen?
I'd appreciate any comments, particularly from fellow native speakers on both sides of the pond.
All the best
Ian
Responses
Responses
+4
4 mins
Selected
They are both fine
As a Paddy, I think I'd use them more or less interchangeably. I'd probably go more for ".....", X said, when X was a proper name, but I couldn't say why.
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Note added at 15 hrs 40 mins (2004-04-03 08:44:26 GMT)
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From Fowler (1999): Some of the conditions in which inversion is usual, desirable, or permissible are as follows: (a) in the formulaic setting down of direct speech: \'Hey!\' shouted Mrs. House, who sat inside with her jumpsuit around her knees - New Yorker, 1992. But this is optional: \'I was out in the orchards a while back,\' Milton said - W. Trevor, 1992.
So, inversion in this case is \'usual, desirable or permissible\', but also optional.
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Note added at 15 hrs 40 mins (2004-04-03 08:44:26 GMT)
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From Fowler (1999): Some of the conditions in which inversion is usual, desirable, or permissible are as follows: (a) in the formulaic setting down of direct speech: \'Hey!\' shouted Mrs. House, who sat inside with her jumpsuit around her knees - New Yorker, 1992. But this is optional: \'I was out in the orchards a while back,\' Milton said - W. Trevor, 1992.
So, inversion in this case is \'usual, desirable or permissible\', but also optional.
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks for all your input. I'm still not convinced that there is anything wrong with this type of construction. Admittedly, "said he" tends to bring on Enid Blyton flashbacks, but otherwise if it only strikes two of my colleagues as being old-fashioned, then I think I'll carry on using it as I always have done. Perhaps a little less, though ..."
+6
7 mins
Depends on where the emphasis is wanted
"We are looking for new students", said the headmaster.
In this case it is a bit more important that the one who spoke was the headmaster (and not someone else).
"We are looking for new students", the headmaster said.
In this case it is a bit more important that someone did speak. Perhaps an uncomfortable silence was broken or a general thought (about the need for students) was eventually verbalized.
Nuances of emphasis aside, Ian, I think that your version in general sounds more natural.
Cheers,
Elena
In this case it is a bit more important that the one who spoke was the headmaster (and not someone else).
"We are looking for new students", the headmaster said.
In this case it is a bit more important that someone did speak. Perhaps an uncomfortable silence was broken or a general thought (about the need for students) was eventually verbalized.
Nuances of emphasis aside, Ian, I think that your version in general sounds more natural.
Cheers,
Elena
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
jccantrell
: Agree. As an American, I would turn your American's version around as: The headmaster said, "We are...
17 mins
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Good point. Thanks, jc
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| agree |
perke
37 mins
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Thanks, perke
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| agree |
Craft.Content
7 hrs
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Thanks nbhairav
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| agree |
Liesbeth Huijer
18 hrs
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Thanks Liesbeth
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| agree |
hookmv
1 day 3 hrs
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Thanks, Veronica
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| agree |
Jörgen Slet
1 day 7 hrs
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Thanks, Jörgen
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+3
8 mins
your version is correct, at least in the UK
this is part of the rules for integrating direct speech in a line
"speech," verb object. Inversion is not acceptable as it applies only to questions.
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Note added at 39 mins (2004-04-02 17:43:19 GMT)
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http://www.teachers.net/lessons/posts/2894.html
http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~cs5014/fall.95/courseNotes/WebPages/5.T...
http://esl.about.com/library/grammar/blreported.htm?once=tru...
doing this research, I realised that in your example, the headmaster is a subject. The tendance would be to put \'the headmaster said\' before the statement. When putting it after, as Elena said, it is a question of emphasis, but it works only with 3rd person singular parataxis structure using the verb \"to say\" or \"to think\" [Angela Downing, p.296-300], in all other instances you have to use the structure \"speech,\" subject verb as in \"I\'ll take the cases,\" he whispered or \"I said come in, Mrs XX!\" John barked at her.
"speech," verb object. Inversion is not acceptable as it applies only to questions.
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Note added at 39 mins (2004-04-02 17:43:19 GMT)
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http://www.teachers.net/lessons/posts/2894.html
http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~cs5014/fall.95/courseNotes/WebPages/5.T...
http://esl.about.com/library/grammar/blreported.htm?once=tru...
doing this research, I realised that in your example, the headmaster is a subject. The tendance would be to put \'the headmaster said\' before the statement. When putting it after, as Elena said, it is a question of emphasis, but it works only with 3rd person singular parataxis structure using the verb \"to say\" or \"to think\" [Angela Downing, p.296-300], in all other instances you have to use the structure \"speech,\" subject verb as in \"I\'ll take the cases,\" he whispered or \"I said come in, Mrs XX!\" John barked at her.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Vicky Papaprodromou
2 mins
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cheers Vicky
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| agree |
Jörgen Slet
1 day 7 hrs
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cheers Jörgen
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| agree |
senin
2 days 4 hrs
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cheers
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15 hrs
Edward L. Crosby III
Native in English
&
English
Works in field
The best never rest!
Native in: English 
Works in: German to English, Spanish to English, English to German, and 3 more.
I see absolutely no difference
from an American perspective.
"We're leaving now," said Tom.
"We're leaving now," Tom said.
6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other.
"We're leaving now," said Tom.
"We're leaving now," Tom said.
6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other.
+1
4 hrs
'Fraid I agree with your colleague, Ian...
Depending on the register, I'm afraid "said the Headmaster" does indeed sound pretty dated to my British ears; reminds me of 'Billy Bunter' books of the 50s, and Enid Blyton
Just my opinion, for what it's worth!
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Note added at 1 day 5 hrs 34 mins (2004-04-03 22:38:05 GMT)
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A delightful example, that actually plays on the \'quaint\' feel of the inversion, will be familiar to many Brits of my age:
\"Time for bed!\" said Zebedee.
Just my opinion, for what it's worth!
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Note added at 1 day 5 hrs 34 mins (2004-04-03 22:38:05 GMT)
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A delightful example, that actually plays on the \'quaint\' feel of the inversion, will be familiar to many Brits of my age:
\"Time for bed!\" said Zebedee.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
chica nueva
: Tend to agree. But (Ian) it really depends on the style of the text. In what circumstances would you be translating such a sentence (is it literature, a modified transcript???)
2 hrs
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Thanks, Iai'an! Good point there... All a question of register, of course
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