Conor McAuley (asker) Aug 13, 2019:

Certainly there has been debate here, but also some rather pointed language, reading between the lines.

So, to summarise my documents and feedback provided here, the Magistrat, who has seen all the relevant documents, on behalf of the Consul Général across the Channel, issues this Certificate of French Nationality, which is then stamped and signed by a Judge.
Now I'm sure it's cultural, but that's at least two more levels of bureaucracy than any sane person would want to deal with, like I mean why are three people doing the job that one person could do? Why add two layers of complication when the poor woman has also already provided five different documents (one of which refers to three more documents)?
(And actually the French Minister of Justice and a district court in Marseille are involved too, so make that five levels of bureaucracy.)
And that is my last word on it.

Ph_B (X) Aug 13, 2019:

Conor, "only a French functionary will know". Yes and no, with all due respect. Go back to the beginning of this discussion, where the use of S/C is explained on the basis of two reliable sources in context. As I wrote to Daryo earlier on, any educated native speaker will know what S/C stands for when they see it in an address. Which you confirmed by the way in your latest message: "The document names the French national, gives her address, in London, and then the text that I posted appears. " In other words, the magistrate writes to the French national c/o the French consul general in London (see examples I gave above). We don't know why this is so but presumably, the consul general has to know/be advised, or the magistrate has to make sure the document is delivered and they can only do so by sending the document through French civil servants (the consul general in London), etc. etc. Pretty straightforward, believe me.

Ph_B (X) Aug 13, 2019:

Conor, You use words like "fighting" and "dogmatism". I can't see any here - just people exchanging views based on evidence (according to each of them) or asking questions.

Ph_B (X) Aug 13, 2019:

Conor, "how the Consul Général in London (and not the Ambassador) comes into it" That's an easy one to answer. Ambassadors deal with relations between States, whereas consuls general and consuls deal with their nationals who live overseas. You live in France. If you get in trouble with French police, your consul (UK? Ireland? US? etc.) will help you, not "your" ambassador (more precisely, the ambassador of the country of which you're a national). Same thing if you need a birth/marriage/etc. certificate: you'll go to 'your' consulate, not 'your' embassy. It's the same all over the world: ambassadors and consuls general or consuls do a different job and talk to different people. Having said that, you will find embassies with what is called a "consular section" - this is usually the case with smaller countries.

Robert Miki Aug 12, 2019:

@Ph_B & Daryo
Yes, your comments are very pertinent. Where the "S/C" appears, what precedes and what follows the "S/C" are crucial to understanding and translating the term in question adequately.

Conor McAuley (asker) Aug 12, 2019:

And I only posted the question because of my vain pursuit of perfection...we're not mind-readers.

Conor McAuley (asker) Aug 12, 2019:

Whoah there...

The document names the French national, gives her address, in London, and then the text that I posted appears.

For me, there is no solution but to contact one of these functionaries who insist on using jargon. That is the only one anybody who posted here can be 100% sure, so stop already with the dogmatism.

The Magistrat is the one who allegedly saw the documents required, so how the Consul Général in London (and not the Ambassador) comes into it, only a French functionary will know. No value judgement, but only because none are allowed on ProZ.

Robert Miki Aug 12, 2019:

@Conor
Please, help us to be able to help you. Where does the "S/C" appear? What precedes and what follows the "S/C"? That should good enough context IMHO.

Daryo Aug 12, 2019:

It's not the only possible, and in fact we STILL don't know for sure!
If it's on a document related to this Certificate of Nationality, it still could be either!

Ph_B (X) Aug 12, 2019:

Alleluia! :-) "leaving the most usual [read: the only possible] meaning of "care of" - probably on the accompanying letter."

Marco Solinas Aug 12, 2019:

To Asker As I understand it, the "juge d'instance" is signing and issuing the certificate on the basis of information provided by the consul general of France in London.
Did I misunderstand you?

Daryo Aug 12, 2019:

the doc shows that although "le Consul Général" is acting as "l'’officier de l’état civil" for French nationals living abroad, when it comes to "Certificat de nationalité française" they can not be issued in French consulates abroad, but only in France.

So although you could see the signature of a "Consul Général" on a birth / marriage / death certificate, there is no way that a "Consul Général" would be signing "un Certificat de nationalité française" - which eliminates the possibility of "signed on behalf of the General Consul" leaving the most usual meaning of "care of" - probably on the accompanying letter.

I found it just before Asker finally confirmed who signed this Certificate.

In fact, if "S/C DE ..." is not on the Certificate itself, we are back to square one - still could be either!!!

Where exactly does this "S/C DE ..." appears? On which part of which document?

Ph_B (X) Aug 12, 2019:

Daryo, Where does S/C appear in your doc? Conor's question is about S/C, not about how you get your nationality certified or by whom.

Daryo Aug 12, 2019:

Now there is no more ambiguity 1) The document is signed by a "Juge d'instance" in Paris.
2) The person who is having their French nationality certified lived in London at the time of certification.

And it corresponds to what is said here:

https://docplayer.fr/10979057-Vous-sollicitez-la-delivrance-...

I won't delete any of the discussions, just to show how missing "little pieces" of context can make quite a big difference.

Ph_B (X) Aug 12, 2019:

Conor, There's no fighting. The additional info you just posted doesn't tell us where S/C appears. Not on the birth certificate, I would think, but perhaps on a cover letter?

Conor McAuley (asker) Aug 12, 2019:

Before some of you start pulling hair... Thanks for everybody's input. Pity it got tetchy.

Some more context:
1) The document is signed by a "Juge d'instance" in Paris.
2) The person who is having their French nationality certified lived in London at the time of certification.

Now, please proceed. No fighting this time!

Ph_B (X) Aug 12, 2019:

Daryo, Well, then. It's a question about the meaning of "S/C", which any educated native speaker will recognise as meaning "care of (c/o)" when followed by a title or function, in the context of a birth certificate. In other words, something is sent c/o the French Consul-General in London and that thing may or may not be the certificate. Full stop. [EDIT, following Daryo's change of his latest message!] The version of the q I get on this computer is the same as yours. No doubt whatsoever about what it means. My only query, to native speakers of English who know how their civil servants write, is whether there might be another, more formal?, way of saying this.

Daryo Aug 12, 2019:

From what is says on this page just at the beginning of the question:

French to English translations [PRO]
Certificates, Diplomas, Licenses, CVs / CERTIFICAT DE NATIONALITE FRANCAISE

Or the version of this question on your computer is not the same?

Ph_B (X) Aug 12, 2019:

Daryo, ""un Certificat de nationalité française" which is "addressed" to no one in particular"[now deleted by Daryo]. Where do you get this is what this question is about? All we know is that something is sent c/o the French Consul-General in London. Full stop.<p>And now for Daryo's new comment: "in a document like that "le Consul Général" can only be a signatory, so "care of" is off-limits." Who's talking of signing anything here? Again: All we know is that something is sent c/o the French Consul-General in London. Full stop.

Daryo Aug 12, 2019:

All the "context" needed is already there implied by "Certificat de nationalité française"

in a document like that "le Consul Général" can only be a signatory, so "care of" is off-limits.

Had the Asker explicitely specified that the term asked is part of the signature, not of the address - it would've cut some unnecessary guessing.

Ph_B (X) Aug 12, 2019:

c/o a consul-general "Ms. Olena Zerkal, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs c/o The Consul-General of Ukraine in Hamburg"/"To The United States of America C/O The Consul General of [in] Halifax"/"addressed to a soldier aboard the U.S.S. Petrel, c/o the Consul General in Shanghai" - all of these are easily found on the Net

Daryo Aug 12, 2019:

This document is not some ordinary letter with a named destinatary - in which case "care of" could make sense as part of the address, but

"un Certificat de nationalité française"

which is "addressed" to no one in particular (usually "To Whom It May Concern")

the person who would normally sign this kind of document would be the head / the chief of the Consular section, i.e. "Le consul général" - if anyone else happens to be signing a "Certificate of nationality" it can only be done if that person is doing it "on behalf of" the person authorised to sign (= "Le consul général")

Le Rôle du Consul Général

Le consul général, tel le maire d’une commune de France, est investi, dans sa circonscription consulaire à l’étranger, des fonctions d’officier de l’état civil.

Le consulat général tient les registres de l’état civil.

Il dressera directement les actes relatifs à des événements d’état civil survenus dans sa circonscription consulaire vous concernant, vous et votre famille :
- reconnaissance,
- naissance,
- mariage,
- décès.
https://ma.consulfrance.org/Le-Role-du-Consul-General

Ph_B (X) Aug 12, 2019:

S/C can stand for "sous couvert de" For instance,<p>Une lettre destinée à un service relevant de la Présidence ou d’un autre ministère que celui dont dépend leur service d’affectation, par exemple, devra être adressée, par la voie hiérarchique, "sous-couvert" (S/C) de chacune des autorités intermédiaires...Chacune des autorités concernées devra être en mesure de formuler des observations ou... (http://www.fonction-publique.gov.pf/spip.php?article446 )<p>Néanmoins, la voie hiérarchique est systématiquement mentionnée sur la lettre, au-dessous de l’adresse administrative du destinataire, par les termes : « sous couvert de » suivis de la fonction de l’autorité dont le rédacteur dépend. Par exemple, un sous-préfet n’écrira au ministre de l’Intérieur que sous le couvert de son préfet ( https://www.eyrolles.com/Chapitres/9782708134133/Chap1_point... ).<p>but Conor would have to confirm that this fits his context. If so, it does means "care of", but is that how you would say it in a civil service setting?

liz askew Aug 11, 2019:

sous couvert?
https://uk.ambafrance.org/IMG/pdf/pv_reunion_2014-2.pdf?6747...
Translate this page
sous la présidence du consul général, M. Pierre-Alain COFFINIER. ... France au Royaume-Uni, les conseillers consulaires ont lancé une pétition à .... à adresser au MAEDI au plus tard le 15 février 2015, sous couvert du consul général.