This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
CIR (comité de convenance institutionnelle de la recherche)
cours du graduat Infirmière Graduée
Nov 12, 2019 16:12
4 yrs ago
9 viewers *
French term

professions supérieures

French to English Social Sciences Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc. catégories socioprofessionnelles
Au-delà de la faible représentation des plus jeunes, les principaux écarts entre les connaisseurs de Gallica et la population française portent sur les études longues, les professions et catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures et la consommation de livres et d’activités culturelles, toutes mieux représentées que dans la moyenne française, comme l’a montré une récente étude de l’Ifop (Ifop, 2018).


I'm not sure that English-speaking countries share the same concept of 'professions supérieures' and 'catégories socioprofessionnelles'?

Here's my attempt so far:

In addition to the low representation of young people, the main differences between Gallica users and the general French population reside in attainment of higher education and more highly skilled jobs and socio-occupational categories, and consumption of books and cultural activities, which are all better represented than in the general population, as shown by a recent Ifop study (Ifop 2018).
Proposed translations (English)
4 +1 Access to the professions
4 +1 higher occupational social class categories
4 more skilled jobs
References
PCS in France

Discussion

Wolf Draeger Nov 14, 2019:
Final draft & last thoughts "Apart from the low inclusion of young people, those aware of Gallica stand out from the general French population in that they are more likely to have a postgraduate education, work in knowledge-intensive fields, and value reading and cultural activities, as found by a recent Ifop study."

I really think socioprofessional/occupational creates more problems than it solves and that it's best translated by the common thread of intellectuelles (with supérieures a red herring). How about "knowledge" ("knowledge workers", "knowledge economy")? Not 100% accurate, but close enough?

The higher social status of such workers, real or imagined, seems to me implicit enough in combinations with "knowledge", especially if the text discusses knowledge-based power structures and imbalances.

It's been fun, good luck!
Delaina (asker) Nov 14, 2019:
Draft 3 Those aware of Gallica stand out from the general French population in other ways apart from the low representation of the young: they are more likely to have attained a post-graduate qualification, have high socio-occupational status, and value reading and cultural activities, as found by a recent Ifop study.

(I think 'representation' is in keeping with the academic register.)
Delaina (asker) Nov 14, 2019:
socio-occupational In fact, I'd intended to preserve 'socio-occupational' from my original translation; this leads me to wonder if "socio-occupational status" could work here ...
Wolf Draeger Nov 14, 2019:
2nd draft/1st edit "Apart from counting few young people, those aware of Gallica stand out from the general French population in other ways: they are more likely to have a postgraduate education, work in the top socioprofessional sectors, and value reading and cultural activities, as found by a recent Ifop study."

Bring out your red markers! ;-)
Delaina (asker) Nov 14, 2019:
Latest draft Beyond the low representation of young people, those aware of Gallica stand out from the general French population in other ways: they are more likely to be educated to post-graduate level, have jobs that fall within higher socio-professional categories, and value reading and cultural activities, as shown by a recent Ifop study.

I'm retaining 'the low representation of young people' at the beginning of the sentence because it refers back to the last point made in the article, and thus ending with the reference to the Ifop study. I liked the way you switched the sentence around, @Wolf; but I found it better suited to a journalistic style. What I have preserves the weighty tone of the overall article.
B D Finch Nov 14, 2019:
@Asker Q. "Is your point the difference between saying that these people SIMPLY HAVE ACCESS to the education and the jobs & saying that they ACTUALLY HAVE the education and the jobs?
Am I understanding the objection correctly?"

A. Yes. However, you have the benefit of seeing the whole text and can judge whether it is OK to broaden the category to include those who have access to education and jobs, whether or not they have already taken advantage of that.

I also think that Wolf is mistaken to omit the "socio" as, by doing so, it omits the criterion of social status. People's behaviour is influenced not only by their education and the requirements of their jobs, but by the social expectations that their education and jobs entail.
Delaina (asker) Nov 14, 2019:
@Wolf Ok, that's great, thank you. One reason I feel fairly ok with "access to" is that it's in an article that is founded in Bourdieusian sociological theories to do with distinction. I'm sorry I didn't reference this earlier. It's just beginning to occur to me that this may well be relevant.
Wolf Draeger Nov 14, 2019:
1st draft "As a recent Ifop study finds, those aware of Gallica are more likely to be well educated, to be highly skilled and high earning, to value reading, and to attend or participate in cultural events and activities, than the youth or the average person in France."

My attempt tidies up the repetitions in the FR and loses any connotations of unfair or unequal gaps. Perhaps it takes too many liberties, but that would be my starting point.
Delaina (asker) Nov 14, 2019:
@BD Finch / @ Wolf Just to check I'm understanding the query better:

Is your point the difference between saying that these people SIMPLY HAVE ACCESS to the education and the jobs & saying that they ACTUALLY HAVE the education and the jobs?
Am I understanding the objection correctly?
B D Finch Nov 14, 2019:
@Asker I understand your point about "access to". However, unless your text makes it clear that it includes people who have not yet achieved the benefit of better education and jobs, and not just the people who have already obtained those benefits, I think you risk misrepresenting the data used by your source text.
Delaina (asker) Nov 14, 2019:
"Toffee" hahaha! @Wolf - thank you. That's much better - let's please all just have a laugh and be civil with one another. It's just something I find baffling throughout this forum.
Wolf Draeger Nov 14, 2019:
Toffee @Lara I disagree. But I do want to stress that my disagreement with your answer or reasoning on this question is in no way meant to call you into question, and if anything I've said suggests otherwise, I apologize.

@Asker Agree 100%. My apologies if my comments have come across as haughty or uncivil.
Delaina (asker) Nov 14, 2019:
@ Wolf - propose new translation Would you be able to suggest a better way to translate:

"...les principaux écarts entre les connaisseurs de Gallica et la population française portent sur les études longues, les professions et catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures et la consommation..."
?
I like "access to" because this is the idea behind the original: that Gallica users stand out from the general population of French people owing to their access to better education and jobs. I can't think of a better way of phrasing it right now.
Lara Barnett Nov 14, 2019:
@ Delaina Sounds good.....!
Delaina (asker) Nov 14, 2019:
@Wolf Draeger - I see what you're saying Thanks. I'll think some more. But can I make a plea for more friendliness and politeness in general on this forum. This isn't directed at you personally. I just find it really weird that we don't adopt a friendlier, kinder tone in general.
Lara Barnett Nov 14, 2019:
@ Wolf But the "professions" is not just limited to the traditional professions, most of those in your list could also be included these days.
Wolf Draeger Nov 14, 2019:
Fudge (not the tasty kind) With all due respect to the winning answer, I think Asker's decision reflects the worst of all worlds. Professions et catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures is clearly a single term referring to a much broader category of occupations than just the professions in EN. It includes managers & executives, civil servants, academics & researchers, writers, artists, even dancers and circus performers. And access to any of these jobs or to higher education has nothing to do with it.

There is no neat, concise way of putting it in EN without an explanation, so you have to sacrifice some accuracy for the sake of clarity (or vice versa depending on your point of view), but either way the translation has to make sense to someone not familiar with the French system.
Lara Barnett Nov 14, 2019:
@ BD FINCH I used "access to" in my answer, indicating (to the asker) throughout the question post that this was a possible way to integrate the term into the sentence, along with a couple of other examples. I think the asker is aware that I have added this possibility as an example, and that it is not a literal translation (which as we all know is not always possible).
B D Finch Nov 14, 2019:
@Asker Where does your source text say anything about "access to"? It seems to say that these criteria were already acquired, not merely accessible.
Delaina (asker) Nov 13, 2019:
Thank you all for your contributions, which I've read with much interest. I'll post my latest translation of the sentence based on your suggestions:

Au-delà de la faible représentation des plus jeunes, les principaux écarts entre les connaisseurs de Gallica et la population française portent sur les études longues, les professions et catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures et la consommation de livres et d’activités culturelles, toutes mieux représentées que dans la moyenne française, comme l’a montré une récente étude de l’Ifop.

Apart from the low representation of young people, Gallica users stand out from the general French population in their access to post-graduate education, the professions, and higher socio-occupational categories, and in their consumption of books and cultural activities, as shown by a recent Ifop study.
Wolf Draeger Nov 13, 2019:
Wrong turn? Although it's the tooth giving trouble, isn't there a danger of getting bogged down in the weeds of professions et catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures? The matter at hand is knowledge and use of Gallica as found by a survey. Focusing on the common thread running through the occupations in question—very high skills—seems to me more sensible and helpful to the target reader than getting to grips with the finer points of the system.
B D Finch Nov 13, 2019:
@Tony and Ph_B I think the confusion is that I took the professions as read in the source text ("les professions et catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures") and, as the Asker used the adjective "supérieures", which only really needs to apply to the "catégories socioprofessionnelles" bit in translation as "professions" can, in this instance, be translated as "professions". You wouldn't translate it as "higher professions" in English, as professions are, by definition, of higher socio-econominc class/status. The "catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures" would include the professions, so there is a bit of redundancy (rather like saying "dogs and other canines", when you could just say "canines"), but I think it, nonetheless, contributes extra information.
Lara Barnett Nov 13, 2019:
@ Asker - Your structure I think that it is also important to phrase the term so that it fits into the structure. I have tried to provide a couple of examples in my own suggested answer, but it seems to have been taken negatively by some. Therefore, if could you provide what you are now considering using in the context, it may be more relevant (or may not be), but would help to determine this.
B D Finch Nov 13, 2019:
@Tony and Ph_B https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/socioprofessionnel
"SOCIOPROFESSIONNEL, SOCIOPROFESSIONNEL, -ELLE, adj.

"Qui concerne à la fois l'appartenance sociale et la vie professionnelle. Catégories socioprofessionnelles. Catégories d'une population selon ses caractéristiques sociales et professionnelles. La brutalité des conséquences qu'une opération de réunion peut avoir sur le niveau des charges de fiscalité directe intéressant tel ou tel groupe socio-professionnel (Belorgey, Gouvern. et admin. Fr., 1967, p. 286).Un échantillon représentatif de toute la population française âgée de 15 à 29 ans. C'est-à-dire de toutes les catégories socioprofessionnelles: ouvriers, agriculteurs, employés, étudiants, etc. (L'Express, 17 févr. 1969, p. 119, col. 2).
Prononc. et Orth.: [sɔsjopʀ ɔfεsjɔnεl]. V. socio-. Étymol. et Hist. 1958 (Romeuf t. 2). Formé de l'élém. socio-* et de professionnel*. Bbg. Blochw.-Runk. 1971, p. 218. − Vincent 1983."

They think it's an adjective and, though Larousse thinks it can also be a noun, if it were a noun here, it would not be feminine plural. However, "catégories socioprofessionnelles" can be understood as a compound noun composed of a noun and an adjective.
Ph_B (X) Nov 13, 2019:
Tony, I agree and I mentioned your post in my message of 9.06 this am. There is no redundancy that I can see here: the text introduces two nuances that we should try to translate.
Ph_B (X) Nov 13, 2019:
B D, Sorry, me again, but this stupid discussion box won't let me... m'étaler. Just to say I've just seen your answer and I agree with you that it all boils down to the same thing: a lawyer, for instance, will belong to the higher professional echelons of society. But I think and tried to show that the text introduces an additional nuance by separating the "job" and the "position" that is derived from it.
Ph_B (X) Nov 13, 2019:
B D, <p>In my previous post, I tried to explain that it is quite possible to have two different terms: professions, on the one hand, and catégories socioprofessionnelles, on the other hand. And so, from a purely grammatical perspective, supérieures can easily apply to both: professions supérieures and catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures. But as you know, repetitions are frowned upon in French, which is why we end up with professions et catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures. Now, as far as the meaning is concerned, I said that professions on its own wouldn't mean much in this context: "occupations are better represented on average". Err... sorry? I can't see what this would mean, whereas it would make more sense to write that "the professions (i.e. occupations supérieures) are better represented on average (than other, "lower" [!] occupations) (in addition to categories, people with MAs/PhDs and people who read and take part in cultural activities)".
Tony M Nov 13, 2019:
@ Ph_B Totally agree, and I made this very point in a peer comment below: there is no reason why 'supérieures' cannot qualify both nouns here (catégorie socioprofessionnelle' is a single noun) — but every reason why it must; as you say 'professions' on its own would be meaningless here in FR, as well as leading to an imbalanced sentence.
And to answer a point made by Phil: there is indeed an important difference that must be retained between 'professions supérieures' and 'catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures' — this is not redundancy!
B D Finch Nov 13, 2019:
@Ph_B I'm not quite sure whether you intended to agree or disagree with my discussion comment:

"I'm afraid that using professions on its own would be meaningless here (it just means "occupation" in French, nothing else)" - Yes, absolutely. "[W]hile it is quite possible to have catégories socioprofessionnelles on its own. It is quite possible, grammatically, for supérieures to refer to both terms" - No, it isn't, because that would result in one adjective qualifying the previous adjective "socioprofessionnelles" instead of the noun "catégories".
Ph_B (X) Nov 13, 2019:
B D, "In "catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures", the noun qualified by the adjectives "socioprofessionnelles" and "supérieures" is "catégories", not "professions". I'm afraid that using professions on its own would be meaningless here (it just means "occupation" in French, nothing else), while it is quite possible to have catégories socioprofessionnelles on its own. It is quite possible, grammatically, for supérieures to refer to both terms and, leaving aside any consideration about elitism, which would be irrelevant here, I very much doubt that all occupations would know of the existence of Gallica, let alone use it: the fact remains that Gallica is just not known or used by everyone.
B D Finch Nov 13, 2019:
Inconsistency The text you quote doesn't contain the phrase you post as your header term. What it does contain is "catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures", which is not at all the same as "professions supérieures". In "catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures", the noun qualified by the adjectives "socioprofessionnelles" and "supérieures" is "catégories", not "professions".
Lara Barnett Nov 13, 2019:
Études longues So maybe "post graduate" education....?
Ph_B (X) Nov 13, 2019:
profession in French describes any occupation. The men and women who empty my bin every Tuesday, whatever the weather, have une profession. It's called éboueur. Which is not the same as "profession" in English - see TonyM's post above. In order for profession to mean the same as "profession", you must add supérieure in French (cf. Wolf's reference), which is what your text does (professions et... supérieures - in this case, supérieur refers to both the occupations and the socioprofessional categories) (see TonyM's comment below).<p>And while I'm here, "higher education" as you use it in your intro is not the same as études longues. To me "higher education" refers to any studies in a higher education institution (incl. for instance the French 2-year DEUG), whereas études longues describes any studies from or beyond an MA course (I'm not sure I would describe a BA as études longues).
Lara Barnett Nov 13, 2019:
@ Wolf As I said, I don't agree on being too fussy (or splitting hairs as you say), but there are some terms and expressions that carry a certain nuance or connotation.
Where I come from "well educated" means (or at least is used to mean) that you have literally been through a good education, it is certainly not limited to simply "general knowledge". On the other hand "Highly" is a stronger more emphatic word, so may risk sounding a bit sarcastic at times.
Obviously, words can simply be a subjective choice, but I am recalling my experience of nuance/connotation/usage.
Wolf Draeger Nov 12, 2019:
Well? Yes, highly Elitism is a danger, but for me—and this is *highly* subjective—"well educated" implies general knowledge whereas "highly educated" implies specialized knowledge.

So, a well educated person knows a little about everything (and might have a bunch of qualifications) while a highly educated person knows everything about a little (and almost certainly has one or more Masters or PhDs in that field).

But agree not worth splitting hairs over, I wouldn't insist on one or the other :-)
Lara Barnett Nov 12, 2019:
Educated Although I would agree its a waste of time getting fussy or pedantic over use of synonyms, in terms of "educated", I would use "WELL educated" rather than "HIGHLY educated", which can sound a bit extreme or reflect the wrong attitude (in this case) IMO.
Tony M Nov 12, 2019:
@ Asker You can't really 'attain' higher education.
'profession supérieures' is really what we would call 'the professions' in EN (doctor, lwayer, architect, etc.) — the other 'professions' are really what we would call 'job' or 'trade'.
'socio-professional categories' is very much a concept used in EN too, as a quick Google search will quickly show.
Wolf Draeger Nov 12, 2019:
Education & Skills As you say, few countries mirror the rigid French classification of jobs and occupations (except perhaps China or N. Korea...), so like in your 1st example sentence, I would go with a wording that has "highly skilled" for professions et catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures and "highly educated" for études longues. Most English-speakers will understand that the former means top white collar & above and the latter means postgrad. Best to keep it simple but clear.
Delaina (asker) Nov 12, 2019:
Updated translation attempt Apart from the low representation of young people, Gallica users stand out from the general French population in their attainment of higher education, their professional occupations and socio-occupational categories, and their consumption of books and cultural activities, as shown by a recent Ifop study (Ifop 2018).

Proposed translations

+1
7 mins
Selected

Access to the professions

We call the more high-profile, more demanding and traditional occupations "the professions".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 mins (2019-11-12 16:23:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"The 5 traditional professions are architecture, clergy, engineering, law and medicine. Law and medicine are traditionally considered to be the more elite of them."
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-professions

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 mins (2019-11-12 16:30:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"...,prescence in the professions"
Or
"... access to the professions"

Your question states "professions supérieures", but the paragraph posted only says "professions". My answer has taken account of the adjective you used.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 hrs (2019-11-13 07:32:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"So while MEMBERS OF THE PROFESSIONS have long regarded themselves as different (by which they probably mean 'better') from those without letters after their name, it is becoming ever less clear exactly how they are different.
In short, just what is it that the PROFESSIONS actually profess about themselves that their prospective clients and society should value?"
https://www.managementtoday.co.uk/why-professions-pulled-ped...
Peer comment(s):
agree Ph_B (X) : with "members of the professions". Not for me to say how it can be used in the sentence, but "members of the profession" could be part of the solution.
15 hrs
Thank you.
neutral Gordon Matthews : I would probably translate "professions superieure" as "professional occupations". I don't read "access to" in either of the two words, "professions" and "superieure".
17 hrs
"access to" or "presence in" is intended to help integrate the term into the sentence structure - you need to read the whole source sentence.....!
neutral philgoddard : It doesn't say "access to".
21 hrs
No, it certainly doesn't say that. I was trying to help the asker fit the time into her structure. I Hope that can be forgiven..
Something went wrong...
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks a lot for your help"
20 mins

more skilled jobs

It doesn't say "professions supérieures" as such - it's "professions et catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures", which is a very roundabout way of saying that they have more skilled jobs. I think you should take the jargon out and use plain English.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 42 mins (2019-11-12 16:54:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or more skilled professions.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : I don't agree, Phil: because of the different way FR uses 'professions', they would not use it in this doublet without including it in the qualification, so it is for sure 'professions supérieures' AND 'catégories socioprofessionelles supérieures.
11 mins
It's clumsy repetition to say "professions and socioprofessional categories". They both mean the same thing, which is how you earn a living.
disagree Daryo : just because for you "it's all the same" doesn't make it "all the same".// to give you an example from a different field: 3 and 3.0 and 3.00 may seem "all the same" to you but they ARE NOT.
8 hrs
I didn't say anything about numbers being all the same. What are you talking about?
neutral B D Finch : It's about socio-economic class/status, which can't be reduced to "more skilled jobs".
22 hrs
agree Wolf Draeger : Or "highly skilled"? But yes, "skills" is the most straightforward way to say it.
22 hrs
Thanks!
Something went wrong...
+1
19 hrs
French term (edited): catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures

higher occupational social class categories

See my discussion post re the inconsistency between the text you quote and the header term you posted for your question.

https://europepmc.org/abstract/med/23394892
A Domingo-Salvany, A Bacigalupe, JM Carrasco… - Gaceta …, 2013 - europepmc.org
… This article presents two proposals to measure social class: the new classification of occupational
social class (CSO-SEE12), based on the CNO-2011 … The proposed CSO-SEE12 consists of seven
classes that can be grouped into a smaller number of categories according to …

https://jech.bmj.com/content/59/10/898.short
GD Batty, DA Lawlor, S Macintyre, H Clark… - … of Epidemiology & …, 2005 - jech.bmj.com
… on an ordinal scale. 34 Linear weights were calculated as w i = 1-(i/5), where w i
is the weight given for a distance of i categories between the two measurements
of occupational social class. Using the original six occupational …

For the new European occupational social class categories see https://www.iser.essex.ac.uk/archives/esec/user-guide/the-eu...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2019-11-13 14:33:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Note that your text does not apply the adjective "supérieures" to "professions" (which, by definition, fall within the "catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures"). So, "les professions et catégories socioprofessionnelles supérieures" would be
The professions and higher occupational social class categories.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2019-11-13 14:50:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry, I was wrong and the text does apply the adjective "supérieures" to "professions" too. Indeed that is the only justification for translating that as "professions" in English. Though, in English, the adjective "higher" shouldn't then apply to the noun "professions".
Reference:

https://www.iser.essex.ac.uk/archives/esec/user-guide/the-european-socio-economic-classification

Peer comment(s):
agree Ph_B (X) : with your 2nd note added at 22hrs:"professions" = professions supérieures. "(members of the) professions and (of the) higher occupational categories"?/Only suggested to take into account connaisseurs (="persons"). And it's Ph_B, please :-)
19 hrs
Thanks Ph_B. There is no need for the addition of the words you have put in brackets in your suggestion. However, it is essential to include the social aspect of "socioprofessionnelles".// Sorry for blowing your cover: now corrected!
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

33 mins
Reference:

PCS in France

From Insee:

Catégorie socioprofessionnelle agrégée 3 : Cadres et professions intellectuelles supérieures

Cette catégorie regroupe des professeurs et professions scientifiques salariés qui appliquent directement des connaissances très approfondies dans les domaines des sciences exactes ou humaines à des activités d'intérêt général de recherche, d'enseignement ou de santé. Des professionnels de l'information des arts et des spectacles dont l'activité est liée aux arts et aux médias. Des cadres administratifs et commerciaux d'entreprise, salariés qui ont des responsabilités importantes dans la gestion des entreprises. Des ingénieurs et cadres techniques d'entreprise, salariés exerçant des fonctions de responsabilité qui nécessitent des connaissances scientifiques approfondies.
Reference:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professions_et_cat%C3%A9gories_socioprofessionnelles_en_France

http://www.insee.fr/fr/metadonnees/pcs2003/categorieSocioprofessionnelleAgregee/3?champRecherche=true

Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Ph_B (X)
1 hr
agree Cyril Tollari
5 hrs
agree Daryo
10 hrs
agree B D Finch
18 hrs
agree Tony M
19 hrs
Something went wrong...
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search