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Glossary entry

Romanian term or phrase:

timp / contratimp

English translation:

on-beat / off-beat

Added to glossary by Lara Barnett
Sep 25, 2014 09:51
9 yrs ago
6 viewers *
Romanian term

timp / contratimp

Romanian to English Other Music
ex:

De la măsura 82 asistăm la expunerea unui ritm eterogen, oarecum „şchiop”, de 5, încadrat în măsuri alternative pe tiparul 2+3, ritm în interiorul căruia compozitorul „strecoară” de două ori, la piccolo, flaut şi clarinet, o formulă ritmică binară combinată (***contratimp-timp***), pe care am mai întâlnit-o în desfăşurarea anterioară

sau

Această coda nu dezminte imaginaţia combinatorie, dimpotrivă, o desăvârşeşte, astfel că măsurile alternative de 5/8 cu 3/4 şi 5/8 cu 2/4 apar în mod firesc, ele încadrează ritmuri cruzice şi anacruzice, pe ***timpi şi contratimpi***.

Mulţumesc!
Proposed translations (English)
4 on-beat / off-beat
5 -1 tempo / contratempo
5 -2 point/counterpoint
4 -1 strong beat / weak beat
References
Case Studies in Music Therapy - Google B...
Change log

Oct 14, 2014 19:22: Lara Barnett Created KOG entry

Discussion

Cristina Crişan Oct 3, 2014:
Clayton 'Syncope' and 'contratimp' are clearly explained in this book in PDF format: http://tinyurl.com/nk42ppn
The text is in Romanian, but you can see examples on pages 42 and 43 (as displayed by Adobe, or 54 and 55 as marked at the bottom). 'Contratimp' apparently is when you replace the 'ictuses' with rests.
Marcella Magda (asker) Oct 3, 2014:
Thank you all for your kind help. The piece is Concerto no. 1 for cello and orchestra by Dmitri Shostakovich. The text I am translating is focused mainly on the rhythm/meter/tempo relationship. I have also just received the opinion of a composer with a Ph.D. in composition (from a Canadian University), and his "verdict" was : "contrapunct" = "off-beat rhythm", and "punct/contrapunct" = "on the beat/off the beat".
Clayton Causey Oct 3, 2014:
What piece? Do we know what the piece is? If I could hear it, I think I could give a definitive answer for what the writer means.
Clayton Causey Oct 3, 2014:
Polyrhythm/Rhythmic Counterpoint In a case where true counterpoint (two concurrent but divergent melodies) exists, what we would use in English to discuss the rhythmic differences would be polyrhythm. So, you would typically refer to the "primary rhythm" and "secondary rhythm". If you wanted to be REALLY creative, MAYBE rhythmic counterpoint would be understood in context.
adami Oct 3, 2014:
That was exactly my point, there are two melodies, it is quite clear form the context: the flutes play, at times, a different melody (with a different rhythm) from the rest of the orchestra, and then they return to the main melody.
Cristina Crişan Oct 3, 2014:
I think it's syncopation when the note is tied from one beat to the next (legato), while the "contratempo" employs silences or pauses or whatever you call them.
Clayton Causey Oct 3, 2014:
point/counterpoint Point and counterpoint HAVE to include at least two melodies. One melody, harmony and rhythm CANNOT constitute point/counterpoint. No concurrent melodies are mentioned, therefore we can't be sure if there is point/counterpoint or not. If there is only one melody, there can be no counterpoint. Usually an orchestra would play harmony and rhythm while one section plays a melody, perhaps in multiple voices but still a single melody. Counterpoint can only exist where there are two distinct and divergent melodies. Here the author does not wish to focus on melody and does not mention a counterpoint melody, so we can conclude that it is highly unlikely these terms are correct for timp/contratimp.
Clayton Causey Oct 3, 2014:
Contratempo/syncopation Can you explain the difference between the two as you understand it? Perhaps there is something I'm not completely understanding. It sounds like a something I would like to research.
Cristina Crişan Oct 3, 2014:
Thank you, Clayton You must be right, I checked your profile :-) I think the problem might be that while you classify 'contratempo' as a type of syncopation, in our music theory "contratimp" is considered to be a separate category.
Clayton Causey Oct 3, 2014:
Thoughts on extra context "contratimp sincopat" refers to a strong beat where a weak beat is expected. This would best be translated simply as "syncopation". "Timp-contratemp" here means alternating normal rhythm with syncopation. You could say "The alternating between syncopation and regular time that begins in measure 65..."
adami Sep 26, 2014:
Am dat astfel de referinte, va rog sa le consultati (patru la numar). Am explicat deja si de ce nu este nevoie de precizarea "rhythmic", fiindca se intelege din context (fiind, totusi, un text pentru specialistii in muzica). La fel, am explicat si ca este doar o dovada de fair-play sa explicati si de ce considerati incorect ceva, dar continuati sa nu o faceti. Demonstratia mea a fost mai mult decat suficienta, pentru cine doreste sa inteleaga si e orientat in domeniu.
Cristina Crişan Sep 26, 2014:
Răspunsul pe care l-am considerat incorect este "point/counterpoint". Ăsta este răspunsul pe care l-aţi dat cu maximum de încredere. Dacă doriţi să discutăm despre ”rhythmic counterpoint”, vă rog să ne oferiţi referinţe credibile (din domeniul MUZICII şi nu al lingvisticii, de exemplu) din care să rezulte că sensul acestui termen este echivalent cu contratimpul.
adami Sep 26, 2014:
Pt. MCristy Dvs. considerati ca definitia de dictionar este suficienta, dar nu dovediti ca ati inteles cu adevarat notiunile in cauza. La asta ma refeream, si anume ca nu reusiti sa aratati de ce considerati contrapunctul ritmic a nu fi o traducere corecta, in situatia in care avem de a face, din context, tocmai cu mai multe linii melodice intr-o orchestra, unele dintre aceste linii melodice venind cu accentul mutat pe timpul slab al liniei melodice principale (aceasta este exact definitia contrapunctului ritmic).
Cristina Crişan Sep 26, 2014:
??? Adami, cred că mă confundati. Explicaţiile pe care vi le-am oferit ar fi trebuit să fie suficiente, dat fiind faptul că şi din DEX v-aţi fi putut lămuri de faptul că este vorba de două noţiuni diferite.
Dar poftiţi şi definiţiile dintr-un dicţionar de termeni muzicali:
contrepoint - contrapunct, tehnica de compozitie constand in suprapunerea mai multor linii melodice
contretemps - contratimp, procedeu ritmic constand din atacarea unui sunet pe un timp slab, urmat de o pauza pe timpul tare
http://ro.scribd.com/doc/38767602/Dictionnnaire-de-termes-mu...
Marcella Magda (asker) Sep 26, 2014:
Adaug încă două fraze în care apare "contratimp", poate ajută:

Mişcarea cruzică a instrumentelor de coarde se transformă, în următoarele măsuri, într-un ***contratimp sincopat***, suflătorii, îmbogăţiţi numeric, intonând traseul melodico-ritmic anterior.

O expunere de tip ***timp-contratimp*** începe la măsura 65, odată cu o nouă articulare a formei, ceea ce necesită o gândire a pătrimii ca unitate de tactare.

Vă mulţumesc pentru ajutor.

Proposed translations

7 days
Selected

on-beat / off-beat

I would go for this as it can be used as an official musical term, but also to describe in natural speech how music can be interpreted.

" In music that progresses regularly in 4/4 time, counted as "1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4...", the first beat of the bar (downbeat) is usually the strongest accent in the melody and the likeliest place for a chord change, the third is the next strongest: these are "on" beats. The second and fourth are weaker - the "off-beats". Subdivisions (like eighth notes) that fall between the pulse beats are even weaker and these, if used frequently in a rhythm, can also make it "off-beat".[6] "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(music)#On-beat_and_off-be...
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Mulţumesc!"
-2
22 hrs

point/counterpoint

Ex. Holland's incredibly deft ostinatos, which leverage soloists and ensemble, and the proliferation of themes—there's rarely a point without a counterpoint—help define a stylistic autonomy that subsumes the borrowings.
http://www.villagevoice.com/2002-11-05/music/point-counterpo...

Throughout the record, the band’s guitarists explore point/counterpoint rhythm structures, in which one often plays a constant, straightforward riff and the other augments it with angular bursts and complementary stabs.
http://www.mtv.com/news/1488053/hives-album-preview-out-of-t...

The Duetto for Cello and Bass by Rossini allowed the lower register instruments to take an assertive role. Jackson on bass and Aegenheyster’s on cello played point-counterpoint with rhythm and melody.
http://www.riverreporter.com/issues/03-06-19/highstrung.htm

http://books.google.ro/books?id=HctTAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA141&lpg=PA...

Sigur, mai e si Huxley, evident...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Counter_Point

O observatie: cuvantul ”contratempo” nu exista in engleza, poate intr-o alta limba.

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Note added at 22 hrs (2014-09-26 08:37:20 GMT)
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Termenii ”sincopa”, ”sincopare” si ”contratimp” nu se pot, niciunul dintre ele, folosi intersanjabil.

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Note added at 22 hrs (2014-09-26 08:43:12 GMT)
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http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/counterpoint?s=t
Peer comment(s):
disagree Cristina Crişan : Acesta este contrapunctul // Nici poveste; contrapunctul este total altceva.
1 hr
Da, tehnic vorbind, contratimpul in acest sens este un contrapunct ritmic. Putem spune ”rhythmic counterpoint”, dar se intelege din context. / Vechea poveste: contraziceti (si inca vehement), dar nu oferiti si motive (si nici macar nu va documentati).
neutral crocox : counterpoint este contrapunctul care nu este același lucru cu contratimpul.
9 hrs
Va rog sa cititi explicatiile mele. Cand este vorba de o orchestra cu niste linii melodice in contratimp cu cele de baza, este vorba de contrapunct ritmic.
disagree Clayton Causey : Point and counterpoint refer to melody. The original here is referring to rhythm EXCLUSIVELY. "Rhythmic counterpoint" still refers to two concurrent melodies in your references, and highlights that the rhythm is the major difference. Very nuanced.
6 days
Are you familiar with rhythmic counterpoint (I gave some references)? I believe that is exactly what it is here. There is a main melody with a secondary (syncopated) rhythm overlapping ONLY with some instruments (piccolo, flute...)..
Something went wrong...
-1
50 mins

tempo / contratempo

http://admission.univ-ovidius.ro/admission/academic-offer-fo...

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Note added at 1 hr (2014-09-25 11:10:47 GMT)
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Pentru contratimp se foloseşte şi termenul 'syncopation':
http://www.musicappreciation.com/rhythmclass.htm

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Note added at 1 hr (2014-09-25 11:26:58 GMT)
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Eu aş folosi fără rezerve TEMPO şi CONTRATEMPO în textul de faţă.

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Note added at 1 hr (2014-09-25 11:28:51 GMT)
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http://fanfare.ro/pdf/principiile_muzicii.pdf

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Note added at 1 hr (2014-09-25 11:34:58 GMT)
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file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Gabriela/My%20Documents/Downloads/Victor-Giuleanu-Teoria-Muzicii.pdf


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Note added at 1 day8 hrs (2014-09-26 18:25:49 GMT)
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”In 6-8 time there exists an equally faulty method of executing the first note of the contra-tempo as though it were a sixteenth note, instead of imparting the same value to both notes.”
http://www.scribd.com/doc/33888961/ARBAN-Complete-Conservato...
Note from asker:
Mulţumesc, crocox, dar din următoarea frază rezultă clar că 'sincopa' şi 'contratimpul' nu sunt acelaşi lucru: "Lecţia” de punere în practică a teoriei ritmului continuă, „expozeul” muzical are caracteristici ce pot părea savante, dar la o privire atentă „jocul” lui Şostakovici cu cele trei formule ritmice consacrate (anacruza, contratimpul şi sincopa) este evidentă."
Peer comment(s):
disagree Clayton Causey : This refers to the pace of the music. I've never seen the term "contratempo" from a native English source.
6 days
Something went wrong...
-1
7 days

strong beat / weak beat

Also known as in popular music as down/up beat, down/back beat.
Example sentence:

In typical 3/8 time, the first beat is a strong beat and the following two are weak.

Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(music)

Peer comment(s):
neutral Cristina Crişan : 'Contratempo,' I think, is rest in strong beat followed by note in weak beat. What do you call that in English?
20 hrs
Syncopation
disagree adami : This does not refer to one rhythm alone. The context is about an orchestra, with a main beat and a secondary beat that deviates from the main (so it's point/counterpoint)...
1 day 12 mins
But point and counterpoint HAVE to include melodies. Harmony and rhythm CANNOT constitute point/counterpoint. No concurrent melodies are mentioned, therefore we can't be sure if there is point/counterpoint or not. If there is only one melody, there is no
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 day 10 mins
Reference:

Case Studies in Music Therapy - Google Books Result
books.google.com/books?id=VQCImIuKh0EC
Kenneth E. Bruscia - 1996
Off-beat or“Contretemps”: This expression is first a musical one: to be off the beat, contra-tempo; but the French term has a broader meaning which is interesting ...
Note from asker:
Cam înspre asta înclin şi eu: onbeat / offbeat, dar nu sunt sigură.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
disagree adami : ”Offbeat” inseamna ”timp slab” (in muzica). V. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/offbeat?s=t. Poate fi folosit daca e vorba de o accentuare unica a unui timp slab (sincopare), dar ca descriere a unor formule ritmice complexe nu are sens.
1 hr
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