Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
en haut/en bas
English translation:
On the face of things / underneath the surface
Added to glossary by
Rebecca Elliott
Mar 3, 2010 16:13
14 yrs ago
French term
en haut/en bas
French to English
Other
Tourism & Travel
Military History
This is from a document relating to a village that played a major role in the First World War. This is the introduction to the village before the war. I'm not sure what is meant by "en haut" and "en bas". Is it something along the lines of "on the surface" and "underneath"?
En haut, le village est agricole et plutôt traditionnel. En bas, les habitants goûtent davantage au syndicalisme et à la libre pensée.
Thank you.
En haut, le village est agricole et plutôt traditionnel. En bas, les habitants goûtent davantage au syndicalisme et à la libre pensée.
Thank you.
Proposed translations
(English)
References
Tracy-Le-Mont and Tracy-Le-Val | Gad Kohenov |
Change log
Mar 3, 2010 16:15: Stéphanie Soudais changed "Term asked" from "En haut. En bas." to "en haut"
Mar 3, 2010 16:48: Stéphanie Soudais changed "Term asked" from "en haut" to "en haut/en bas"
Proposed translations
+7
5 hrs
Selected
On the face of things / underneath the surface
But your original thought is about the same, I think you are on exactly the right lines, it's just a question of how to express it.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Olga Gladkova
1 hr
|
agree |
Chris Hall
3 hrs
|
agree |
PAUL DUMASS CHINNAPPAN
: on the face of things / but in reality... to express it better in other words, (At a first glance, one would observe that the village is.... but a closer look would reveal that they ....
4 hrs
|
agree |
Ana Cristina Gutierrez Iglesias
11 hrs
|
agree |
Catherine Gilsenan
: Agree with Paul
13 hrs
|
agree |
Stephanie Ezrol
1 day 21 hrs
|
agree |
Michael GREEN
2 days 11 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you"
2 mins
French term (edited):
En haut. En bas.
upstream and downstream
"en haut ----en bas" veut dire ici "en aval et en amont"
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Note added at 9 mins (2010-03-03 16:22:36 GMT)
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or "uphill and downhill"
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Note added at 9 mins (2010-03-03 16:22:36 GMT)
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or "uphill and downhill"
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
Rob Grayson
: I see nothing suggesting this interpretation – in fact, it appears fairly meaningless in this context
2 mins
|
See Bouth's explanation
|
|
neutral |
Michael GREEN
: I don't see how this can apply to a village - certainly not the one I live in, anyway.// Took you a while to react (10 days?), but be that as it may, and with all respect to Bourth, I still don't see what it has to do with a village, on a hill or not.
3 mins
|
See Bouth's explanation
|
|
neutral |
Chris Hall
: Sorry, but this does not make a lot of sense to me.
5 mins
|
Sorry for you too; see Bouth's explanation
|
|
neutral |
writeaway
: no basis for so much confidence. it makes no sense
8 mins
|
It makes sense however, see Bouth's explanation
|
|
disagree |
swisstell
: expressions used in the oil industry, upstream being oil exploration and downstream being refining and distribution. Hardly applicable here
17 mins
|
You have your reply from Bourth
|
|
agree |
Bourth (X)
: Agree on principle. I think it unlikely, but it COULD be this. Note that "upstream" and "downstream" are used in many fields, not just the oil industry, and can also be said "upriver" and "downriver".
1 hr
|
Am very grateful for your support and explanation, Bourth
|
|
agree |
Ana Cristina Gutierrez Iglesias
17 hrs
|
Thanks Cristina
|
+2
10 mins
French term (edited):
en haut
Uphill and downhill
In my region, le haut means more altitude. If the village is hilly (and most of them are) you'll talk about the people who live "en haut" and "en bas".
In the Doubs, where I live, there is the "haut Doubs" which is the section over 900 meters or so and the "bas". It's well know that the people in the "haut" are not at all like the people in the "bas". The "bas" can be either Montbéliard and the Protestant region with Peugeot being the biggest influence or Besançon, Catholic, University, etc. Pontarlier is the "haut" It's a border city with Switzerland and very conservative.
So I think it's more about the hills and relief in the village that has created this difference.
In the Doubs, where I live, there is the "haut Doubs" which is the section over 900 meters or so and the "bas". It's well know that the people in the "haut" are not at all like the people in the "bas". The "bas" can be either Montbéliard and the Protestant region with Peugeot being the biggest influence or Besançon, Catholic, University, etc. Pontarlier is the "haut" It's a border city with Switzerland and very conservative.
So I think it's more about the hills and relief in the village that has created this difference.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
John Detre
40 mins
|
agree |
Evans (X)
: I'm more inclined to this interpretation.
49 mins
|
neutral |
liz askew
: up the hill, down the hill, i.e. at the top/bottom of the village. Contrast
1 hr
|
24 mins
French term (edited):
en haut
in plain view .... but not so obvious
in plain view/on the surface the village is agricultural and traditional but not so obvious is that the villagers enjoy.....
1 hr
on top / below
I see your concern that it may describe a psychological state, which you may have gathered from the remaining text.
it might be useful to look for terms which might apply either way, physically as well as attitudinally/psychologically, and so a more basic approach might be helpful (my suggestion). Good luck on your translation
it might be useful to look for terms which might apply either way, physically as well as attitudinally/psychologically, and so a more basic approach might be helpful (my suggestion). Good luck on your translation
+1
1 hr
upper part / lower part (or the northern and the southern part)
I ´d say
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Tony M
: upper / lower, perhaps — but there is no real justification for the northern / southern idea
13 hrs
|
agree |
Jacqui Audouy
18 hrs
|
18 hrs
on the one hand.../on the other...
that is the idea I get.
20 hrs
at the top of the village...at the bottom
My first thoughts basically agreeing with Ellen. In the village in the UK where I used to live we talked about people living at the top of the village (mainly council houses) and at the bottom (very middle-class)
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Note added at 20 hrs (2010-03-04 12:56:37 GMT)
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and yes, it was on a hill!
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Note added at 20 hrs (2010-03-04 12:56:37 GMT)
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and yes, it was on a hill!
+2
1 hr
the upper crust / the plebs
Maybe "village" refers not to the actual, physical village but to the people that compose it. I think it's quite common to talk about le village meaning its people.
So maybe en haut / en bas refers to socio-economic position. While peasant farmers might not be uppercrust (though certainly traditional), the owners of the agricultural land would be: right-wing, catholics. Whereas the lower echelons of society, the factory workers, would be left-wing unionists and/or free-thinkers.
This socio-economic split could well be geographical as well, with farmers on the plateau land, landowners and the well-to-do on the sides of the valley where the air is clean and dry and they get some sun, and industry down in the valley, by the river, where, for historical reasons associated with water mills driving machinery, factories might be located.
However, my native-French-speaking partner sees it as "visibly" and "deep-down".
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Note added at 1 hr (2010-03-03 17:49:57 GMT)
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Tracy-le-Mont is just over 2km from Tracy-le-Val, so they are unlikely to be regarded as a "common entity". There appears to be no river running through Tracy-le-Mont.
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Note added at 2 days5 hrs (2010-03-05 22:08:12 GMT)
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So "the people/villagers at the top" and "the people/villagers at the bottom" (without specifying "of what").
I was going to suggest "the Village People on top/underneath" but thought better of it ;-).
So maybe en haut / en bas refers to socio-economic position. While peasant farmers might not be uppercrust (though certainly traditional), the owners of the agricultural land would be: right-wing, catholics. Whereas the lower echelons of society, the factory workers, would be left-wing unionists and/or free-thinkers.
This socio-economic split could well be geographical as well, with farmers on the plateau land, landowners and the well-to-do on the sides of the valley where the air is clean and dry and they get some sun, and industry down in the valley, by the river, where, for historical reasons associated with water mills driving machinery, factories might be located.
However, my native-French-speaking partner sees it as "visibly" and "deep-down".
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2010-03-03 17:49:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Tracy-le-Mont is just over 2km from Tracy-le-Val, so they are unlikely to be regarded as a "common entity". There appears to be no river running through Tracy-le-Mont.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days5 hrs (2010-03-05 22:08:12 GMT)
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So "the people/villagers at the top" and "the people/villagers at the bottom" (without specifying "of what").
I was going to suggest "the Village People on top/underneath" but thought better of it ;-).
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Verginia Ophof
1 hr
|
agree |
Jacqui Audouy
: Han't realised this contained ideas similar to my own, sorry
19 hrs
|
neutral |
Michael GREEN
: Although an early 20thC village certainly had a class structure, this period saw the infancy of the trade union movement.... and my French partner agrees with yours (with reservations - see above)...
2 days 15 hrs
|
4 days
uphill/downhill
"le mont" meaning the hill, and "le val" meaning the valley, it seems obvious to me that it is a geographical distinction. The village being seperated into two parts, the one on the hill, "en haut", and the one at the river or valley level "en bas". No need for a big river to have "val" in a name, a stream would do.
Reference comments
15 mins
Reference:
Tracy-Le-Mont and Tracy-Le-Val
Maybe it is two villages. One near a hill another in a valley?
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Note added at 41 mins (2010-03-03 16:54:37 GMT)
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Maybe two villages is exaggerated, but a rural uppper part and an lower less rual one is very plausible.
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Note added at 41 mins (2010-03-03 16:54:37 GMT)
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Maybe two villages is exaggerated, but a rural uppper part and an lower less rual one is very plausible.
Note from asker:
Thanks, but I think the meaning is figurative rather than relating to any literal geographical features of the village. I read it as meaning that "on the surface" the village is conventional but "underneath" there is a trend towards trade unionism etc. |
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree |
John Detre
35 mins
|
1000 mercis!
|
|
agree |
liz askew
: The Ancient Village of Bonnieux, Provence: Historical, Fortified ... The 'old church' at the top of the village is accessed from the Rue ... in 1856 the decision to build a 'new church' at the bottom of the village was made. ... france-travel.suite101.com
1 hr
|
1000 mercis!
|
|
agree |
Jacqui Audouy
20 hrs
|
1000 mercis!
|
Discussion
I find that can be very useful, sometimes...
http://www.tracy-le-mont.org/compagnie-darc/index.html
Un peu d'histoire
TRACY LE MONT et TRACY LE VAL.
Tracy le Val and Tracy le Mont were one village.
So, I still think that the villegeois would talk about the "haut" and "bas" as a geographical reference that in turn makes reference to the mindset of the inhabitants (conservative/liberal).
Le hasard des découpages des cantons, plusieurs fois redéfinis de 1790 à 1971, a séparé deux communes qui, au cours des siècles, avaient mené ensemble une existence paisible.
The author's statement about free-thinking and trade-unionism in an agricultural community is surprising, since the agricultural community is very conservative, and even in my village today, I can't say I've met many "libre-penseurs" or "syndicalistes". However, I think we have to assume the author had good reasons for saying it.
In favour of the "on the face of it/below the surface" interpretation, the early 20th century was a period of social change and the founding of trades unions.
At the same time, I can't see any reason for a geographical interpretation: unless the people on the high ground (if it exists) were more conservative than those lower down... so insofar as Bourth's "upper crust" probably lived on any high ground, I wouldn't dismiss his suggestion entirely.
Sorry Stéphanie, didn't notice your post when I was typing mine.
;o)
However, I rather think, Rebecca, that you are on the right lines with "on the surface" and "underneath"
(typed while Beverly was posting her comment!)