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Wende- und Formplatten
amtssigniert Amtssignatur
Apr 28, 2016 15:56
8 yrs ago
4 viewers *
German term

aufgeladen

German to English Social Sciences Religion
Die Päpste des späten 13. Jahrhunderts verschenkten sowohl spezifisch für die Schenkung angekaufte Neuware als auch aus dem päpstlichen Schatz stammende liturgische Textilien aus dem Eigengebrauch. Diese Stücke dürften aufgrund ihrer Erstverwendung innerhalb der päpstlichen Liturgie zusätzlich zu ihrem materiellen Wert ideell aufgeladen gewesen sein und sich in besonderer Weise dafür geeignet haben, die Präsenz des ehemaligen päpstlichen Trägers und Schenkers an die Orte der beschenkten Kollektive zu transportieren.

I am not sure of the best way to translate "ideell aufgeladen". The author occasionally uses the word "charged" in English (she writes both in English and German in this text), but charged sounds strange to me in English. Any ideas?
Proposed translations (English)
3 +2 laden with symbolic meaning / symbolically charged
3 injected with additional meaning
3 must have have been imbued with the Christian spirit/ideology
3 suffused with piety/spiritual power
2 took on added significance
Change log

Apr 28, 2016 16:19: Michael Martin, MA changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (3): Steffen Walter, Björn Vrooman, Michael Martin, MA

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Discussion

Björn Vrooman May 12, 2016:
Thanks for the info, Kaportnoy (sorry, haven't been on here recently).

"author said that that did not encompass everything she was trying to say"

- I'm still dying to know whether this is what drove her to write (as quoted by you):
"As a consequence of donation, these mobile objects changed their users"

(Don't take this too seriously.)

Have a nice evening.
Kaportnoy (asker) May 2, 2016:
Update for those interested: I went with spirtual, but the author said that that did not encompass everything she was trying to say. I told her of the other suggestions here in the forum, and she decided to go with "symbolic." Thanks for all the help!
Ramey Rieger (X) Apr 29, 2016:
@Kaportnoy It certainly took us a while, but we will eventually get there. Glad you like it.
Kaportnoy (asker) Apr 29, 2016:
@Ramey Rieger I like instilled!
Ramey Rieger (X) Apr 29, 2016:
instilled in this case, would be my choice, as the meaning evolves through the various users and the intent they impress upon the objects. This term also works very nicely in the current context = were instilled with spiritual significance.
Kaportnoy (asker) Apr 29, 2016:
Sorry about the confusion--my main question was with the word "charged" but I did mention ideell in the question so that would be my fault. I was actually uncertain about that word as well so I greatly appreciate the comments and feedback. Here is an example of the author's use in English: "Some of the mobile objects given as gifts were originally part of the papal treasury and used in the context of in papal ceremonial and liturgy. As a consequence of donation, these mobile objects changed their users, their spatial contexts and their liturgical settings. In turn, the gifts themselves were charged with a new level of meaning" However, it seems most of you are against charged so I may go with laden with or something of that sort. Vielen Dank!
Björn Vrooman Apr 29, 2016:
@Paul Wasn't meant mean or something. No apologies necessary. It just reminded me of how difficult it is to keep track after a while and I guess Kaportnoy should have split it into two questions.

Best wishes
Paul Cohen Apr 29, 2016:
Erm, Björn My apologies. I'm working with a tablet here (iPad) and it's hard to scroll through the discussion section. In any case, "symbolic" doesn't go far enough for me.
Björn Vrooman Apr 29, 2016:
Erm, Paul First discussion entry:
"No, it's more like: In addition to material worth, they also had spiritual significance."

PS: I shall rest my case now. No-one is going to read 132 discussion entries. I hope our discussion about it helped Kaportnoy some and I wish you all a nice weekend!
Björn Vrooman Apr 29, 2016:
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here.

"it (could) mean(s) it was FIRST worn by the Pope before it was gifted away."
- Yes, that was my point. Once it was used by the Pope (for how long is of no relevance), it was designated as "spiritually significant." It says "aufgeladen," not "durchtränkt" or "verwoben" or anything alike. That is a one-time process in German.

Then it goes on to say "die Präsenz des ehemaligen päpstlichen Trägers und Schenkers an die Orte der beschenkten Kollektive zu transportieren."

I don't see the issue here. It's not radiating or something.
Paul Cohen Apr 29, 2016:
Picking and choosing from the answers given I like Andrew's "laden with" and Ramey's "suffused" and David's "imbued" as translations of "aufgeladen". I also think we need a translation of "ideell" that contrasts pointedly with "materiell". Jonathon's "significance" also appeals to me. I would say a combination of the answers given would fit nicely, such as "laden/imbued/suffused with spiritual significance".
Ramey Rieger (X) Apr 29, 2016:
Do you know how LONG a liturgy can take? How familiar are you with intense prayer? I don't mean to insinuate any lack of religious awareness, but these are deeply spiritual/religious acts, etheral and earthy at the same time, and could be rather lengthy rituals. And 'Erstverwendung' does not necessarily mean the vestment was worn but once, it (could) mean(s) it was FIRST worn by the Pope before it was gifted away.
Björn Vrooman Apr 29, 2016:
Sorry, you suggested so many words, I overlooked that one - only saw "suffuse."

Isn't initial use as a papal vestment a "one-shot implication"? Once it's "charged" - or whatever you want to call it - it won't be "recharged" if I can make myself understood here.
Ramey Rieger (X) Apr 29, 2016:
@Björn Even though I suggested infused myself, I would rather withdraw it as it has the same one-shot implications as injected. Suffused/permeated/steeped (my favo(u)rite) are more appropriate, I think.
Björn Vrooman Apr 29, 2016:
On a side note Could you please provide us with another example of "charged"?

You said:
"The author occasionally uses the word 'charged' in English."

But for what reason?
Björn Vrooman Apr 29, 2016:
I'd also opt for "laden with." I'm not fond of "symbolically" because it functions as the adverb here. Yes, there are two meanings for the adverb, but in this case the ambivalence would make it sound a bit strange to my ears. As in "symbolically abolished", it could now be symbolically charged - does that mean it won't actually be charged? Wouldn't it be safer to say "charged with symbolism"?

I thought about "infuse" at first, as in this ABC News article:
"The pope's clothes are infused with history and symbolism."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/popes-wardrobe/story?id=18650986

Just to provide you with another German example:
"Wie haben zeitgenössische Denker den Ersten Weltkrieg vorbereitet, verarbeitet und ideell aufgeladen?"
https://www.schoeningh.de/katalog/titel/978-3-506-71731-3.ht...

It's not all B&W. Here, it's an infusion of ideas. If you're Noah Webster, you can even link that one to the Holy Spirit:
https://books.google.de/books?id=pqJHAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA114&l...
Ramey Rieger (X) Apr 29, 2016:
Good morning Kaportnoy Yes, you COULD used charged here, Lancashireman did :-). I personally wouldn't, as these robes are not batteries and there are too many other "electric" interpretations of the word. If you are 'sold' on Lancashireman's suggestion, then I would recommend 'laden with.'
Kaportnoy (asker) Apr 29, 2016:
Good morning everyone. Thank you very much for all your thoughts. I feel like I have a much better understanding of "ideell", which is a complicated word in itself. However, my question on aufladen still remains - is "symbolically/spiritually charged" correct terminology in this case? Can we use "charged" in this way in English? Or is "laden with" better? I appreciate all your input.
Björn Vrooman Apr 29, 2016:
Good morning to all of you "I think if 'dürften' is what the author wanted to say then ok for him/her so maybe we should stick with that"
- "dürften" means something along the lines of "seems to/appears to have"; "durften" would be wrong entirely, as it would mean "were allowed/permitted to," which doesn't make much sense here.

"The discussions about ideell and durften or dürften are worthwhile, but should perhaps be asked and debated separately."
- Agreed. Although to be fair, you were asking for it in the case of "ideell," since you added "symbolic(ally)" to your direct answer. Had you just said "charged/laden with" and included "symbolic" as an example further below, the discussion might have turned out differently. I was not expecting you to reference linguee (have never seen you doing that before), but to proceed as stated above and reference thesaurus.com :)

"Symbolic does not define of what the vestments are symbolic."
- Thanks. I guess that resembles my earlier explanation. I'll leave it at that, as Lancashireman is right: This should be a separate question. Unfortunately, the word is only used once throughout the entire article, so it's entirely up to Kaportnoy.
Ramey Rieger (X) Apr 29, 2016:
Good morning Kaportnoy To address your question, "I feel like it may be safer to use "symbolic" rather than "spirtual" as symbolic can encompass spiritual. Thoughts?" Both are valid, depending on how specific you wish to be. Symbolic does not define of what the vestments are symbolic. So, taking it way out there, they could symoliz(s)e anything to anyone, positively or negatively reflecting the original use. Spiritual is more specifically related to the liturgical acts performed in these garments. Please do not use 'injected' (no offense Michael) as it more commonly reflects a one-time, and often rather unpleasant event (pos. the tea injected me with energy/neg. he injected insulin into his thigh), and does not reflect the permanence associated with religious reliques.
David Hollywood Apr 29, 2016:
übrigens, denke ich nicht, daß der deutsche Originaltext falsch formuliert wurde
David Hollywood Apr 29, 2016:
and let's see if we can get to the bottom of this



David Hollywood Apr 29, 2016:
I think if "dürften" is what the author wanted to say then ok for him/her so maybe we should stick with that
Lancashireman Apr 29, 2016:
David 1) The German is not "bad" as you suggest. There is a difference of meaning between durfte and dürfte analogous to the difference between konnte and könnte.
2) Do you think that spirit and ideology are interchangeable?
3) And if you had read this thread from the start, you would have seen 'imbued' posted here several hours ago.
4) The ST is aufgeladen, not ideell and certainly not durfte/dürfte
David Hollywood Apr 29, 2016:
any ideas or comments?
David Hollywood Apr 29, 2016:
no moderator present and even if there were one, not the be all and end all ... how about us all discussing the meaning of the ST?
Lancashireman Apr 28, 2016:
aufgeladen Can we please answer the question as set by the examiner? The discussions about ideell and durften or dürften are worthwhile, but should perhaps be asked and debated separately. KudoZ rules state one term at a time, as our moderator would no doubt have reminded us if Kaportny had posted the whole phrase/clause/sentence.
David Hollywood Apr 28, 2016:
personally, I think the German is bad and should read "durften" but if not, see my sugggestions (if "durften" is ok ... then "had to/must have had etc.)
David Hollywood Apr 28, 2016:
dürften ... gewesen sein ... this is important
Björn Vrooman Apr 28, 2016:
On a side note, Kaportnoy Last I heard, you were using "textiles." Wouldn't "vestments" be just as appropriate? There's a whole range of books on it, including "liturgical/papal vestments."

See:
(In title: textiles, further down only "vestments")
http://www.metmuseum.org/blogs/now-at-the-met/2015/why-vestm...
(Encyclopdia Britannica 1911)
http://www.theodora.com/encyclopedia/v/vestments.html
Björn Vrooman Apr 28, 2016:
Your sentence says: "aufgrund ihrer Erstverwendung innerhalb der päpstlichen Liturgie."

But the initial use by the Pope is not a symbol of anything; it is a fact. It increases both the material value, as well as the importance in spiritual matters.
Björn Vrooman Apr 28, 2016:
Thanks for the input. I tried to explain below what issue I have with "symbolic." Another example:
"Another formal description of the Pope in white [...]is found in the Rationale Divinorum Officiorum (1286) of Guillaume Durand. Explaining the symbolic meaning of the papal robes, the 13th century Dominican states:

'The Supreme Pontiff always appears wearing a red mantle on the outside; but underneath he is dressed in a bright white garment. For whiteness symbolizes innocence, and the red on the outside symbolizes charity and compassion, that is to say, to show that he is always ready to lay down his life for his sheep because, indeed, the Pope represents the person of the One who, for our sake, stained his own garment red.'"
http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/i015_RedCope.htm

The symbolic meaning of the Pope's attire is as above. Or:
"The mitre took on a similar symbolic meaning. Such symbolism arises from St. Paul's analogy: I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. From now on a merited crown awaits me..."
http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/9987060.Thanks_wil...
Kaportnoy (asker) Apr 28, 2016:
Wow you all have given me a lot to think about, thank you! To me "laden with" or "suffused/injected with" sound much better than "charged", but I'm wondering if charged is "fachspezifisch" terminology since it does appear in Linguee so often? As for ideell, unfortunately that is the only time it appears in the document. I feel like it may be safer to use "symbolic" rather than "spirtual" as symbolic can encompass spiritual. Thoughts?
Björn Vrooman Apr 28, 2016:
"It is no more a stretch to translate this as 'symbolic' than as 'spiritual'."

I did acknowledge that the German "ideell" and "symbolisch" are hard to tell apart. I'm just having trouble linking "symbolic" to the second part of the sentence: "die Präsenz des ehemaligen päpstlichen Trägers und Schenkers an die Orte der beschenkten Kollektive zu transportieren." That seems less of a "symbolic act" to me than an acknowledgment of a "spiritual presence."

I interpret "materiell" and "ideell" as opposites here, in the same way as "weltlich" and "geistlich."

Just an example:
"The cassock is traditionally worn with a coordinating mozzetta, a short cape that symbolizes his authority."
http://time.com/4046511/pope-francis-us-visit-the-meaning-be...

symbolic meaning = authority
spiritual significance = piece of clothing worn by the leader of a church

I'll just leave it at that, so Kaportnoy will have time to reply before getting the next bundle of message alerts.
Ramey Rieger (X) Apr 28, 2016:
The Pope is the religious leader of millions. God's representative on Earth for all of them. So he is a symbol in himself, which speaks for Andrew's suggestion. I went a bit further, and defined the term more narrowly, given the context. However, Kaportnoy has been working on this document for some time, and it is obvious that the author wishes to be precise without being sentimental.
Michael Martin, MA Apr 28, 2016:
Injected with additional meaning is no broader than the German ideel aufgeladen, IMO. If we choose to talk about symbolic or spiritual meaning, we’re filling in gaps of what we think the author wanted to convey but we would also render the translation narrower than the original.
Lancashireman Apr 28, 2016:
ideell Cognate with 'ideal'. Not really ideal for this context because of its modern usage. It is no more a stretch to translate this as 'symbolic' than as 'spiritual'. The closest literal translation might be 'conceptual', but that is also far from ideal for the context.
Björn Vrooman Apr 28, 2016:
Here you got both The title: "The Symbolism of the Papal Red & White"

"Already in the 11th century St. Peter Damian described the cappa rubea donned by the Pope at his election as a distinctive garb unique to the Pope. (1) Because it stood for the supremacy of the spiritual sphere over the temporal, St. Gregory VII (1073–1085) warned that 'only the Pope may use the red cape as a sign of imperial authority and martyrdom.'(2)"
http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/i015_RedCope.htm

More "recent" language, I'd say:
"Though they are loaded with Christian significance, many of these articles of clothing actually have a far more ancient pedigree."
http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2013/03/12/why-pope-wears-red-s...

"In the Graeco-Roman world, the amice was a head covering[...] The spiritual purpose is to remind the priest of St. Paul’s admonition: 'Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit, the Word of God'"
http://catholicstraightanswers.com/what-is-the-origin-and-me...

All I'm saying is that it'd be nice if Kaportnoy could cite any additional sentences containing the word "ideell."
Ramey Rieger (X) Apr 28, 2016:
Andrew Not today. Why? Have you? Spiritual practices is one my fields of expertise.
Lancashireman Apr 28, 2016:
Ramey Have you been mining Thesaurus.com?
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/suffuse?s=t
Ramey Rieger (X) Apr 28, 2016:
WHOA! Please do not let the religious communities of this world know that you think an object cannot be suffused with spiritual power: the Wailing Wall, the bones of God knows how many saints, the rocks of the Badlands, Cups, the entire city of Mecca, clothes, walking sticks, pipes, feathers and a million other reliques are said to have spiritual/healing/enlightening power.
Lancashireman Apr 28, 2016:
However... the term posted was 'aufgeladen', no more, no less.
Lancashireman Apr 28, 2016:
spiritual significance, maybe; spiritual value, no.
Agree with your fifth paragraph.
Björn Vrooman Apr 28, 2016:
"An object cannot have 'spiritual' properties."

I didn't agree with Ramey. But why would you say an object cannot have spiritual significance?

The issue with "symbolic" is that there is the German "symbolisch" and people even use "ideell" and "symbolisch" as two interrelated, but separate concepts.

If something has a symbolic meaning, it usually has "Symbolkraft." I didn't disagree because I think there is a subtle difference, but I would need more time to explain it.

Maybe we can agree so far that saying "additional meaning" serves no purpose.
Lancashireman Apr 28, 2016:
Björn An object cannot have or be imbued with 'spiritual' properties. This is reserved to sentient beings, in particular us humans. As for 'sentimental value', that might be an otherwise trivial item that reminds us of an earlier stage of our life.
Björn Vrooman Apr 28, 2016:
Just as an added explanation materieller / ideeller Wert = material / sentimental value

ideell means based on an idea = non-material

ideell in the sense asked here would most likely be "spiritual"

Another example (just look up the paragraph including the following sentence):
"Der rechtlichen folgt mit der Seligsprechung des Gründers jetzt die ideelle Aufwertung."
http://www.zeit.de/1992/21/schnelle-ehre
Björn Vrooman Apr 28, 2016:
@Kaportnoy No, it's more like: In addition to material worth, they also had spiritual significance.

Proposed translations

+2
10 mins
Selected

laden with symbolic meaning / symbolically charged

Note from asker:
Are you saying she is right with "symbolically charged"? I did notice that that appears in Linguee but still sounds strange to me. Unless it is "fachspezifisch" terminology?
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard
1 hr
agree franglish
2 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you!"
27 mins

injected with additional meaning

or something to that effect.. I like "inject" as counterpart to "aufladen" but the rest of the phrase could easily be replaced by other options.
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

took on added significance

a more generic take
Something went wrong...
6 hrs

must have have been imbued with the Christian spirit/ideology

I would suggest

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2016-04-28 22:37:04 GMT)
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or: in all likelihood were for "dürften ... gewesen sein"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2016-04-28 22:38:28 GMT)
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were, in all likelihood, imbued/charged with etc.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2016-04-28 22:41:59 GMT)
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very subtle but that's what the German says ...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2016-04-28 22:58:34 GMT)
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and forget the second "have" of course

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2016-04-29 01:15:12 GMT)
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mal sehen
Something went wrong...
15 mins

suffused with piety/spiritual power

...in addition to their material/monetary value, were suffused with piety/spiritual power

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 58 mins (2016-04-28 16:54:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

more ideas:
steeped in devotional strength/divine energy/sacred vigor
permeated/infused/invested with religious intensity/divine intent/sacred force


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Note added at 1 day1 hr (2016-04-29 17:48:19 GMT)
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instilled with spiritual significance
Note from asker:
Thank you for all your help and insights!
Something went wrong...
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