Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Spanish term or phrase:
va con la cosa
English translation:
is self-evident
- The asker opted for community grading. The question was closed on 2021-07-17 23:54:23 based on peer agreement (or, if there were too few peer comments, asker preference.)
Jul 13, 2021 23:35
2 yrs ago
38 viewers *
Spanish term
United States
Small World Language Services
Native in: English (Variant: US) 
Works in: Spanish to English, Portuguese to English, English to Spanish, and 4 more.
va con la cosa
Spanish to English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
Costa Rican dialect
I'm doing some editing on an MT text, and can't imagine the translation into English being as simple as "goes with the thing". I'm looking for something different.
Here's the whole sentence:
"Al no poderse demostrar de modo preciso su cuantificación, esta queda al prudente arbitrio de por los juzgadores, sin que se requiera prueba concreta sobre su existencia, ya que su determinación se hace in re ipsa, lo que implica que es “consustancial o inherente a la lesión misma, va con la cosa, se entiende en principio como derivación del hecho o la conducta adoptada.”
"Since its quantification cannot be accurately demonstrated, it remains at the prudent discretion of the courts, without requiring concrete evidence of its existence, since its determination is made in re ipsa, which implies that it is "substantial or inherent in the injury itself, goes with the thing, is understood in principle as a derivation of the fact or conduct adopted."
Here's the whole sentence:
"Al no poderse demostrar de modo preciso su cuantificación, esta queda al prudente arbitrio de por los juzgadores, sin que se requiera prueba concreta sobre su existencia, ya que su determinación se hace in re ipsa, lo que implica que es “consustancial o inherente a la lesión misma, va con la cosa, se entiende en principio como derivación del hecho o la conducta adoptada.”
"Since its quantification cannot be accurately demonstrated, it remains at the prudent discretion of the courts, without requiring concrete evidence of its existence, since its determination is made in re ipsa, which implies that it is "substantial or inherent in the injury itself, goes with the thing, is understood in principle as a derivation of the fact or conduct adopted."
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +3 | is self-evident |
Katarina Peters
|
| 3 +1 | It is a consequence and more |
O G V
|
| 4 | implicit |
David Hollywood
|
| 3 | is an integral part of the same |
Barbara Cochran, MFA
|
| 3 | part and parcel |
Kristina Love
|
Proposed translations
+3
25 mins
Katarina Peters
Canada
Canada
Native in English
Specializes in field
Canada
Accuracy and A1 presentation
Native in: Hungarian 
, English (Variant: US)
Works in: English to Portuguese, Portuguese to English, Hungarian to English, and 13 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
197
Selected
is self-evident
suggestion
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Adrian MM.
: as a translation of res ipsa loquitur
11 hrs
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Thanks, Adrian
|
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| neutral |
Kristina Love
: Yet it's not "res ipsa loquitur" but "in re ipsa" which is not quite the same.
12 hrs
|
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semantics?
|
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| agree |
philgoddard
13 hrs
|
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Thank you Phil
|
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
21 hrs
|
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Thanks, Allegro
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
27 mins
Barbara Cochran, MFA
United States
United States
Native in English
United States
Laudable Lady Linguist
Native in: English
Works in: Spanish to English, French to English, English to Spanish, and 3 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
147
is an integral part of the same
I might go with this to make it sound more like legalese.
+1
32 mins
It is a consequence and more
Creo que cuadra para el caso
in re ipsa=en la cosa misma
Inside the thing
Stays, lays in the thing
Otras opciones
in re ipsa=en la cosa misma
Inside the thing
Stays, lays in the thing
Otras opciones
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Sandro Tomasi
: This answer captures the "connection" bet. the two with "consequence." I would not include "and more." Personally, I would opt for in connection thereto.
15 hrs
|
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grazie, Sandro, "and more" lo digo en el sentido "de otras propuestas o explicaciones": inside the thing... propón tu opción como respuesta (la gente se fija más en ellas que en los comentarios)
|
22 mins
Kristina Love
United States
United States
Native in English
United States
B.A. in Spanish, A.A. in Audio
Native in: English (Variant: US)
Works in: Spanish to English, Spanish, English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
4
part and parcel
I think it is just more or less a redundant re-wording of what went directly before it, for emphasis. That it is inseparable from the injury, inherent to the injury, all one integrated thing.
You could consider not translating it at all and just leaving it out.
Two notes on your translation: change "substantial" to "consubstantial." They don't mean the same thing.
Another note or more like a question: What does "re ipsa" mean?
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Note added at 31 mins (2021-07-14 00:07:36 GMT)
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From grammarist.com:
Part and parcel
The main definition of the idiom part and parcel is a basic or essential part. The phrase has been around at least since the 16th century. Back then, parcel meant an essential component, so part and parcel were roughly synonymous. The phrase apparently began as legal jargon, where this kind of overemphatic wordiness is common. Indeed, most early instances of part and parcel are from legal texts, and the phrase didn’t enter broader usage until the 19th century.
https://grammarist.com/usage/part-and-parcel/
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Note added at 41 mins (2021-07-14 00:16:44 GMT)
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From a law text (Fallos de la excma. Cámara de apelaciones de lo criminal y correccional de la capital, Volume 5):
"La conducta dolosa de este no alcanza a la esfera del derecho que permanece y se mantiene el mismo, inalterado en su extensión y naturaleza. Va con la cosa, inseparable e invariable."
https://books.google.com/books?id=1UcoAQAAMAAJ&q="va con la ...
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Note added at 50 mins (2021-07-14 00:26:30 GMT)
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As stated in the discussion, I withdraw this answer and wish I could change it to "the thing speaks for itself"! I won't be obnoxious by answering twice.
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Note added at 54 mins (2021-07-14 00:30:25 GMT)
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Aaaand now I'm back to being a fan of "part and parcel."
You could consider not translating it at all and just leaving it out.
Two notes on your translation: change "substantial" to "consubstantial." They don't mean the same thing.
Another note or more like a question: What does "re ipsa" mean?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 31 mins (2021-07-14 00:07:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
From grammarist.com:
Part and parcel
The main definition of the idiom part and parcel is a basic or essential part. The phrase has been around at least since the 16th century. Back then, parcel meant an essential component, so part and parcel were roughly synonymous. The phrase apparently began as legal jargon, where this kind of overemphatic wordiness is common. Indeed, most early instances of part and parcel are from legal texts, and the phrase didn’t enter broader usage until the 19th century.
https://grammarist.com/usage/part-and-parcel/
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 41 mins (2021-07-14 00:16:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
From a law text (Fallos de la excma. Cámara de apelaciones de lo criminal y correccional de la capital, Volume 5):
"La conducta dolosa de este no alcanza a la esfera del derecho que permanece y se mantiene el mismo, inalterado en su extensión y naturaleza. Va con la cosa, inseparable e invariable."
https://books.google.com/books?id=1UcoAQAAMAAJ&q="va con la ...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 50 mins (2021-07-14 00:26:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
As stated in the discussion, I withdraw this answer and wish I could change it to "the thing speaks for itself"! I won't be obnoxious by answering twice.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 54 mins (2021-07-14 00:30:25 GMT)
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Aaaand now I'm back to being a fan of "part and parcel."
2 hrs
David Hollywood
Native in English
Works in field
worked for int. orgs (IMF, OAS, IDB)
Native in: English
Works in: Spanish to English, German to English
Related KudoZ points
:
1245
implicit
you'll have to work it into your text but that's the idea
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Note added at 3 hrs (2021-07-14 02:36:27 GMT)
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probably something like "implicitly" but you need to work the text
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Note added at 3 hrs (2021-07-14 02:36:27 GMT)
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probably something like "implicitly" but you need to work the text
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Sandro Tomasi
: The translation already uses the verb form (implies). It seems the author is trying to paint a picture with synonyms rather than repetition. Don't you think?
2 hrs
|
Discussion
pero hace unos años hacían mal textos que hoy sacan con una fiabilidad asombrosa.
estamos entrenando o preparando a las máquinas desde hace años, quizá esas labores de revisión llamadas MTPE sirvan para que dentro unos años hagan mejor o más redondas estos textos.
Texto que, por cierto, tiene una combinación preposicional en desuso en español y un estilo muy poco actual, recargado o farragoso ("de por los juzgadores" da 4 resultados en el buscador y 3 son ese texto). creo que no es nada fácil traducirlo bien, la prueba es la variedad de respuestas.
Y juzgadores es un sinónimo arcaizante o poco frecuente de jueces
juzgador, ra
1. adj. Que juzga. U. t. c. s.
2. m. desus. juez.
in (en) re (cosa, como en república) ipsa (misma)
yo dejaría el latín igual en inglés y adaptaría "va con la cosa" de forma que se asemeje lo más posible.
nos suele pasar, Kristina: miramos los kudoz rápido y creemos tener la (mejor) respuesta...
saludos!
Siendo esto el caso, todavía prefiero "it is part and parcel" aunque "in the very same thing" es el equivalente directo, porque para mí este no no fluye bien dentro de la oración dada.
https://www.proz.com › kudoz › 94...
in re ipsa | Italian to English | Law: Patents, Trademarks, Copyright
13 feb. 2005 — English translation: in re ipsa. GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW). Italian term or phrase: in ...
https://www.oxfordreference.com › ...
In re ipsa - Oxford Reference
In the very same thing.”(1) Inherent(ly); by itself and without intermediation.(2) In the very same matter
res ipsa loquitur
Gral. 'La cosa habla por sí misma'.
https://dpej.rae.es/lema/res-ipsa-loquitur
So maybe I'll just stick with "it is part and parcel" after all.
The translation seems quite close and literal, still retaining that "machine" flavor so far. I'm not sure how to humanize it in this ultra-formal register. What does "it" refer to??