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Gattungskompatible
Kranzwasser
Mar 21, 2016 19:36
8 yrs ago
German term

Weltstrom

German to English Art/Literary Architecture
Zunaechst beanspruchen und gestalten wir einen Platz im Bewusstsein unseres Adressaten - in einem Bewusstsein, das ueber erstaunliche dedutive, inductive und antizipative Kompetenzen verfuegt, um eine ebenso persoehnliche wie (Gattungskompatible) Welt zu erschaffen, sozusagen einen WELTSTROM)

First and foremost we use and design a space in the consciousness of our audience - in a consciousness that commands incredible deductive, inductive and anticipatory abilities, in order to create a world that is as personal as it is Gattungskompatible), a so called WELTSTROM

I have spent close to an hour on this sentence now, even in Linguee only four example sentences containing the word "Weltstrom" are listed and all of them refer to electricity so clearly not the right context. Any ideas would be very much appreciated.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +1 oceanic flow
3 divine habitat / ideal world
3 a river flowing through our world
3 worldmeld/worldwide stream of congruence

Discussion

Markus Heinrich (asker) Mar 25, 2016:
Haha, I can see this term becoming a famous "case" in Proz history. Years from now someone will ask a question and people will comment that it is a difficult one, and then someone will say "but my god ,do you guys remember that 'Weltstrom' episode ?." :P Yes Helen you guys have spent more than enough of your time trying to decode this term for me, I will carefully read through everything again and then decide what to say. The author is indeed a man, by the way :)
Helen Shiner Mar 25, 2016:
Ah I based my 'he' on a poor recollection that Markus had termed him a 'he'. I've seen material like this from male, female and anonymous, indeterminate writers, so I couldn't possibly comment ;)
Paul Cohen Mar 25, 2016:
The author (he or she?) @Helen: It's interesting that you should refer to the author as a "he." I showed a couple of excerpts from the text to my (German) wife and she exclaimed: "Nur ein Mann könnte so schreiben!" I also somehow have the impression that the author is a man.

Care to comment, Markus? ;-)
Helen Shiner Mar 25, 2016:
Hmmm That's an awful lot to pack into one word. Still very nebulous really. This author does not have the gift of concision, it seems. I think we've all given you enough to be going on with. Hard for us without full context, and reading the whole thing. Interesting that it's tending towards Jung, yet not Jungian. He really should make his methodology and theoretical premises clearer for the reader, so said person stands a chance of following him.
Paul Cohen Mar 25, 2016:
Stream, current, river, flow ... Thanks for that, Markus. I can't claim to understand everything that the author is saying, but it calls to mind watery, flowing images, so some of us weren't perhaps too far off the mark.

Give the original text (and the author's explanation) to 100 translators and I predict that you might get 100 different versions in English.

It did occur to me that we sometimes think of time as a river and we talk about consciousness as a stream. Stream, current, river, flow ...

And whatever a "Weltstrom" is, the author does compare it to a "Welt" of sorts in his original text. It covers so many aspects ("impressions and sensations, merging with each other, flowing interdependently through our consciousness, our subconscious, our bodies") that it might simply be called a "stream of life".
Markus Heinrich (asker) Mar 25, 2016:
The author answers:

Hi Markus and all,

with the term WELTSTROM I try to denote the streaming wholeness of interpretations and concepts creating what we call world, based on uncountable perceptions, impressions and sensations, merging with each other, flowing interdependently through our consciousness, our subconscious, our bodies. I used WELTSTROM instead of WELT because the term WELT suggests that we talk about something that is represented in our mind rather as a timeless thing than as a temporal process. But it is the temporal aspect of the world I want to stress. Does that make sense?
It is not intended to paraphrase the fascinating but still a bit speculative Jung concept of Archetypic figures/Gestalten/concepts.
Jonathan MacKerron Mar 22, 2016:
worldwide phenomonon in this context perhaps?
Markus Heinrich (asker) Mar 21, 2016:
I can't help but feel a little bit reassured that I am not the only one struggling to comprehend, let alone translate, what the author is saying. He may well be referring to Jung as he said he will draw on various disciplines and frequently refers to Gestalt psychology. With a heavy heart I can say that he will also go into special and general relativity and quantum mechanics later on, so I will probably need Steven Hawking to explain to me how he intends to position a rug in the room :P I will talk to the author tomorrow and ask him what that sentence means and get back to you for the sake of our inner peace. Thank you all for your generous help.
Lancashireman Mar 21, 2016:
Just sayin' Author seems confused... :-)
Paul Cohen Mar 21, 2016:
@Andrew Where does "Stromwelt" come from and what leads you to conclude that the author has confused it with the presumably equally watery "Weltstrom"?
Lancashireman Mar 21, 2016:
Author seems confused um eine ebenso persönliche wie gattungskompatible Welt zu erschaffen, sozusagen einen WELTSTROM
>>>
um eine ebenso persönliche wie gattungskompatible Welt zu erschaffen, sozusagen eine STROMWELT
Paul Cohen Mar 21, 2016:
Universal appeal @Helen: then it would have a deep, universal appeal to us, both as an individual and as a species? It would strike a universal chord.
Helen Shiner Mar 21, 2016:
@Paul Great to see you here. From my understanding of Jung, it isn't about an altered state of consciousness, more a primordial one we all share (without knowing it), and from which a shared pool of imagery that resonates with us can be drawn. If one identifies that imagery, and can turn it into architecture (here), it would be something that speaks to us all on a very primitive, deep level.
Paul Cohen Mar 21, 2016:
Oceanic consciousness @Helen: And this notion of an oceanic consciousness (as described by Jung) is somehow tied into the overriding theme of the text ... "visual patterns of processual perception and their potential for art architecture and design" (to quote Markus)? Fascinating. The oceanic consciousness concept sounds a bit like an altered state of consciousness to me (redefining the borders of self) and I have trouble connecting it to the rest of the sentence -- although perhaps it just boils down to our perceptions of a given space (both as an individual and as a species).
Helen Shiner Mar 21, 2016:
@franglish That's what Jung meant it to mean - as applied to consciousness, however, as this sentence does.
franglish Mar 21, 2016:
To go with Daniel's idea of all-encompassing, which is the way I understand it, then 'all-encompassing stream' could make sense.
Helen Shiner Mar 21, 2016:
Weltstrom I didn't make it clear, but I think Weltstrom here is being used figuratively, or at least in reference to Jung.
Helen Shiner Mar 21, 2016:
Gawd What a text! I *think*, but don't *know* that this might be referring to something akin to oceanic consciousness. If you google 'ocean' or 'Ozean', you will see the play on words. Weltstrom being effectively the flow of water around our planet within the oceans. I don't know whether your text has mentioned Jung elsewhere, but oceanic consciousness is a concept of his. It refers to a collective consciousness that we are all subject to on some level. It sounds as if this group of artists/architects are attempting somehow to intuit what it might look like in this 'space' they are designing. My best guess anyway.
Daniel Arnold (X) Mar 21, 2016:
Lets start the discussion with some observations. Here are my wide 50 cents.
1. There was a "world" created in the first part of the sentence. World here does not mean a planet but an "existential reality".
2. Weltstrom cannot be the same as "Weltenstrom", so we can rule out some kind of process from one world to another, it's more contained within the one "world". Welt here is more in the meaning of "all-encompassing" or "existential reality".
So we're looking at some kind of far-reaching fluid reality.
I am at a loss what to call it, but there may be some fancy esoteric word for it out there. My reservation is that I don't feel the word bears much significance for the meaning of the entire sentence. It would make good sense without it.

Proposed translations

+1
2 hrs
Selected

oceanic flow

As per my discussion entries, with thanks to Jung. Also known as the collective unconscious or oceanic consciousness. I suggest 'flow' here, but maybe 'current' would do as well. I would use consciousness but that comes at the start of the sentence so you need to come up with something else.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious

Scroll down to the section on The spiritual experience and primary consciousness - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3909994/
Peer comment(s):
agree Andreas Hild : That's a reasonable approximation that is well within the spirit of psychoanalysis
11 hrs
Thanks, andyhd
neutral Paul Cohen : Given the author's lengthy explanation, I think it's safe to say that an entire ocean of meaning has been inferred from just one word. ;-)
3 days 20 hrs
That's about right; oceanic in its compass ;)
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "I am still not entirely sure what to use, but since your answer has one agree vote and I have to close the question eventually, I will give you the points :)"
1 hr

divine habitat / ideal world

According to Greek mythology, the Weltstrom (also known as Oceanus) was the ocean-stream in which floated the inhabitable world (the known world).

Here's a source in German:

"Oceanus war mehr als nur ein Gott. Ursprünglich personifizierte er den Weltstrom</b, der nach damaliger Ansicht die Länder der Erde umfloss, später dann einfach das Weltmeer. Dieser urzeitliche Weltstrom ging aus der Vereinigung von Himmel und Erde hervor und war nach Homer und Hesiod der Ursprung aller Götter."

Source: http://www.tcneptun.ch/Text/CArchiv/Neptuns1.htm

The Greeks had a different view of gods and men back in the days when the gods lived among us. So the word "divine" doesn't mean that it's only fit for the gods. Quite the contrary! It's for people, too.

In your text, it might look something like this:

"... to create a world that meets the needs of both the individual and society, a divine habitat of sorts."

or

"... to create a world that serves the needs of both the individual and society, in other words, an ideal world."

Hope that helps.

Paul

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Note added at 1 hr (2016-03-21 20:49:55 GMT)
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Oops. I wanted to make only "Weltstrom" bold. Sorry.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2016-03-21 21:47:38 GMT)
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Another approach:

"... to create a world that serves the needs of both the individual and society and strikes a deep, universal chord within us."

(this would be a nod to "oceanic consciousness," which may be the most accurate Jungian-inspired translation and is, I think, the deep watery direction that we are headed)
Peer comment(s):
disagree Andreas Hild : Hard to see how this could vaguely relate to Gestalt psychology.
12 hrs
Well, it turns out that "it is not intended to paraphrase the fascinating but still a bit speculative Jung concept of Archetypic figures/Gestalten/concepts" (to quote the author).
agree Lancashireman : To get you back up to zero (Hard to see how anyone can consider themselves qualified to upgrade/downgrade contributions on this question)
17 hrs
Ha-ha! Said like a gentleman and a scholar. Meanwhile we're still waiting with bated breath for words of wisdom from the author ...
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2 hrs

a river flowing through our world

I think you need to stick close to the author's original wording and leave the reader to figure out what he/she means.
Here is an example of "a river flowing through our world":
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1914&dat=19920528&id=...
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7 hrs

worldmeld/worldwide stream of congruence

my first suggestion is obviously a neologism and the second is a workable interpretation including the "Strom" component a wee bit of poetic licence

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Note added at 7 hrs (2016-03-22 03:05:15 GMT)
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borrowed from the psychological concept of congruence: Carl Rogers stated that the personality is like a triangle made up of the real self, the perceived self, and ideal self. According to Rogers, when there is a good fit between all three components, the person has congruence. This is a healthy state of being and helps people continue to progress toward self-actualization.

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