| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | 什么是母语？ Thread poster: Phil Hand
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wherestip 
United States
Local time: 03:00
Chinese to English
+ ...
| For all practical purposes | Jul 5, 2012 |
ysun wrote:
对于那些明明不是却谎称自己是 native speakers of English 的人，也不必太在意。难道谁还怕这样的人夺了自己的饭碗不成？
That's the thing I don't really understand. I can see some honest professionals feeling real indignant to be associated with peers who misrepresent themselves. But realistically, what are the chances of outsourcers who are specifically looking for native English-speaking translators mistakenly awarding assignments to the wrong job bidders because of false native-status claims? In my estimation, it would be close to nil.
IMO, more often than not, the language mistakes and poor choices of words in a person's profile would be enough to flash some serious warning signs. As a matter of fact, I'm actually nosy enough to have clicked on some profiles to have noticed that myself. 
[Edited at 2012-07-06 13:48 GMT]
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 16:00
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER | Don't underestimate the power of systems and standards | Jul 5, 2012 |
Steve:
I think your argument misses a point about the forces that shape an industry. I'm sure you're right that there are warning signs, and that a PM who is committed to quality can spot them, and that things won't go wrong.
But most people don't have a deep personal commitment to quality. Most people are just following the rules of their job to keep their boss of their back. The whole point of procedures and standards and conventions (like "only use target-native tran... See more Steve:
I think your argument misses a point about the forces that shape an industry. I'm sure you're right that there are warning signs, and that a PM who is committed to quality can spot them, and that things won't go wrong.
But most people don't have a deep personal commitment to quality. Most people are just following the rules of their job to keep their boss of their back. The whole point of procedures and standards and conventions (like "only use target-native translators"; "only use translators with medical backgrounds for medical texts") is so that people who aren't very experienced, or people who are just getting through the day, can also do high quality work. Standards change the equation from "we can achieve good quality if everyone keeps working at it" to "we achieve good quality by default".
We need new standards and conventions for Chinese translation. At the moment, I feel like there are none, and the European conventions don't fit. But in order to work them out, we need some clarity and honesty. ▲ Collapse
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 03:00
Chinese to English
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| The status quo | Jul 5, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote:
... we need some clarity and honesty.
To that, I say good luck. 
No, I'm just kidding. I remember saying in this forum at one point that there's a sea of incompetence out there(and I wasn't about to devote my time to dealing with it). Compound that with the fudging, dishonesty, and outright fraud that goes on, IMO it's not something any of us could tackle or fix in our limited lifetime. 
[Edited at 2012-07-06 13:51 GMT]
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 03:00
English to Chinese
+ ...
Phil Hand wrote:
在这个问题上，我的态度还是蛮强硬的，自称自己能从事中译英工作的人，如果不愿意把自己的英文作品拿出来让别人看或评论，那就说不过去。中国和中文翻译市场是特殊的没错，但这不代表不能评论，而且中国的各种市场越来越与世界市场融合，必须承受世界市场的质量拷问，正如世界市场承受了来自中国的价格挑战一样。Alan自己站出来说自己的水平属于near-native，难道别人不能讨论这个说法？
Phil,
原则上，我同意你“不应该虚报自己的语言背景”的意见。但我在前面说过，“这个问题只能靠自觉，用不着去 verify，也难以实施这种 verification”。我相信，客户一眼就可看出虚报自己语言背景者的水平。即使那些人能蒙上客户一次两次，也蒙不过第三次。再说，一旦客户知道那些人在撒谎，连他们的真话也会以为是假话。
Samuel Murray 所指出的 Alan 的 profile 中的错误，都是些十分明显的错误。我相信别人完全可以看出。他与客户联系时，客户肯定会去看他的 profile。看了之后，自然就会做出合乎逻辑的判断和决定。
[Edited at 2012-07-06 00:20 GMT]
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ysun
United States
Local time: 03:00
English to Chinese
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wherestip wrote:
But realistically, what are the chances of outsourcers who are specifically looking for native English-speaking translators mistakenly awarding assignments to the wrong job bidders because of false native-status claims? In my estimation, it would be close to nil.
IMO, more often than not, the language mistakes and poor choice of words in a person's profile would be enough to flash some serious warning lights.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 16:00
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
ysun wrote:
即使那些人能蒙上客户一次两次，也蒙不过第三次。
但我觉得这个说法太绝对，忽略了实际工作中的摩擦和变动。举个例子：上周做了英国翻译公司拍过来的合同翻译项目，项目大，我只能做一半，结果等时间到了，翻译社突然叫我帮忙校对另外一半。好，我接收，一看那五张合同质量很差，而且很明显是非英语母语人翻的。该翻译社的原则是母语翻译，但实际上他们根本找不到足够的英语母语译者，所以就用中国人凑合凑合，也不改动自己的原则来适应实际情况。
并不是说，人家分辨不出来什么人是什么背景的，而是说，在实际工作中，欧洲的传统翻译标准无法实现，但没有其他标准可依，因此闭一只眼睁一只眼，搞得整个行业从上到下都陷入一种潜规则。对，如果有个某某公司愿意严格把关，是可以做的，但目前谁都不把关，大家都虚报，每个译者是母语人，每个文件是高质量的。
我觉得没有必要这样子。首先，大家得接受原语母语人翻译的事实，随后可以制定有效的质量原则，比如说，我上周的单子，译者用电脑翻译，我觉得这是绝对不应该的，母语者都难以校对电脑输出的译文，外语母语者用这个手段不可能质量好。比如说，使用Word的拼法和语法检查是必需的，外语者可借用这种工具来弥补潜在的短缺。比如说，可以用标准化的处理办法来处理常见的语言问题，如中文的因为...所以...、长句、等。
这种问题都可以规范化，但首先需要译者和翻译社承认，母语者翻译这个标准维持不了，必须创造新的质量模式。
[Edited at 2012-07-05 18:13 GMT]
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 03:00
English to Chinese
+ ...
以中翻英为例，客户不用 native speakers of English 的原因很复杂。例如，对于专业性很强的文件，最理想的翻译者是既懂专业又是 native speakers of English 的人员。这样的人确实存在，但由于各种各样的原因，他们未必就愿意来搞翻译。此外，如今许多翻译社往往以廉价译员为首选，自然就排除了许多称职的翻译。当然还有许多其它原因。
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 16:00
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
最理想的翻译者是既懂专业又是 native speakers of English 的人员。这样的人...未必就愿意来搞翻译...许多翻译社往往以廉价译员为首选
既定的质量标准无法实现，因此直接跳到价格作唯一条件。我就想树立一个新的质量观，让人家有第三个选择。
这种现状难以改变
难是难，慢慢来嘛，我也没想一部上天！
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 03:00
Chinese to English
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Phil Hand wrote:
... 但首先需要译者和翻译社承认，母语者翻译这个标准维持不了，必须创造新的质量模式。
Phil,
I think that's a given. But until that happens, all you can do is make the best of a bad situation.
Perhaps the Chinese to English translation market in Mainland China is so chaotic and unsophisticated that many translators truly believe they are justified in making the claim of having native proficiency in English.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 16:00
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER | Justified? yeah, probably | Jul 5, 2012 |
Yeah, it's a chicken and egg situation. I suspect you're right, that in the mainland market, these words don't even matter. To be honest, I've given up on the mainland market.
I'd aim any efforts at the US/European markets. And at the moment, they're almost as bad. I haven't seen a single big agency which explicitly acknowledges the difference between French-English and Chinese-English. It's all just one undifferentiated "translation".
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 04:00
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
做中文TO英文的，以英语为母语的人很少，这是没有疑问的。我想说得是，其实，在英语和任何一个语言组成的对子中，都是ENGLISH NATIVE SPEAKER的数量明显少于NON-ENGLISH NATIVE SPEAKER。
(也许有例外，比如西班牙语、德语、法语等)
[Edited at 2012-07-06 02:40 GMT]
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 03:00
English to Chinese
+ ...
| 问题也许没有你说的那么严重 | Jul 6, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote:
大家都虚报，每个译者是母语人，每个文件是高质量的。
Phil,
我觉得问题也许没有你说的那么严重。前不久你在 Should “native language” claims be verified 那里说：“Please go and check out Chinese-English translators. The vast majority of those who claim to be English native are just lying. It's not a kinda maybe situation. It's just a lie to get eligibility for jobs.” 于是我就用 ProZ.com translator and interpreter directory 搜索了一下，发现谎报 native language 为 English 的人确实不少。但是，我们不能绝对地认为那些长着一付东方面孔的就一定不是 native speakers of English。
通过搜索可以发现，在 Chinese-English translators 中间，申报自己的母语是汉语的人远远超过声称母语是英语的人。因此我认为，如实申报者还是占绝大多数。有兴趣者不妨按如下方式试一试：
http://www.proz.com/translator-directory/
Search the ProZ.com translator and interpreter directory
Source language: Chinese
Target language: English
Native language: English
Country:
然后，把 Native language 改为 Chinese 后再搜索一下并加以对比。
我认为，谎报者也许达数百人，但仍然还是占少数。当然，我们还是得正视这个问题。
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ysun
United States
Local time: 03:00
English to Chinese
+ ...
Phil Hand wrote:
既定的质量标准无法实现，因此直接跳到价格作唯一条件。我就想树立一个新的质量观，让人家有第三个选择。
重视翻译质量且不惜出高价聘用高水平翻译的客户并非不存在。不过，使用其母语与 target language 一致的 native speakers，并非是保证质量的充分条件。就中译英而言，许多专业性很强的文件如科技论文、专利等，往往还得由母语为汉语但英语水平相当高的专业人员翻译，然后可由 native speaker of English 从语言角度加以修饰。不少客户就是这样做的。我以前曾提到过这样的质保程序。顺便提一句，中国人并非是廉价的代名词。根据 ATA 的多次价格调查，就美国翻译市场而论，中英、英中的翻译价格往往高于其它所有语言对的翻译价格。
http://www.proz.com/forum/chinese/71136-kudoz_的分数-page8.html#569126
ysun wrote:
有一次，翻译社要求我核对一篇据说是native English speaker翻译的中翻英化工论文（最后我决定不接这活）。其中一个化工习惯用语“三传一反”被译为"three passes and one turn”。学化工的都知道，“三传一反”是指“传热、传质、动量传递和化学反应”(heat transfer, mass transfer, momentum transfer and chemical reaction)。即使不如实译出，起码也应该译为"three transfers and one reaction”。当然，这不能怪翻译。翻译社应该让化工专业人员来翻译，甭管他是不是native English speaker，然后让native English speaker去polish，而不是相反。
| | | | Alan Wang
China
Local time: 16:00
English to Chinese
+ ...
| near-native claim | Jul 7, 2012 |
I have no objection to people dissecting my writings in English for whatever purpose. I might even say I was flattered. Actually this person is himself not a 100% native, and the points he found faults with in my text were only a third proved to be betraying problems.
I still stand by my claim that I can produce near-native quality C/E translations. The question may be how near is near enough, or how easily or how often I can produce them?
Phil Hand wrote:
Alan自己站出来说自己的水平属于near-native，难道别人不能讨论这个说法？
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 16:00
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER | Alan - my understanding of near-native | Jul 7, 2012 |
My feeling is that your idea of near-native is not right. Near-native to me means functionally native - i.e. a casual reader would never realise that you're not native. Your language use is the same as a native; but you weren't raised in that language, so you can't claim actual native status. That's not true of you.
ysun:
视角问题
你提出的英美人没看懂原文的问题是实在的，而且我觉得你可能看多了，因为正是译文有问题的时候客户... See more My feeling is that your idea of near-native is not right. Near-native to me means functionally native - i.e. a casual reader would never realise that you're not native. Your language use is the same as a native; but you weren't raised in that language, so you can't claim actual native status. That's not true of you.
ysun:
视角问题
你提出的英美人没看懂原文的问题是实在的，而且我觉得你可能看多了，因为正是译文有问题的时候客户才来找你。反过来，我看了很多中国人生产的问题译文，往往有两种问题比较突出：一、英文写得不通顺，这个问题好解决，但占少部分；2、绝大部分的问题属于原文没看懂或没动脑子去分析，可惜的是，部分中国翻译有『我是中国人我当然看得懂中文文件』的误会。
所以我很赞成你这个说法：
“翻译社应该让化工专业人员来翻译，甭管他是不是native English speaker，”
一般来说我不太主张“中译外校对“的翻译模式，唯一成功的经验是在做医学文件时，译者都是中国医生，翻得非常到位，核对一下修理表达问题即可。 ▲ Collapse
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