| 주제 내 페이지: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | English word "herefrom" in business agreements 스레드 게시자: José Henrique Lamensdorf
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| Present in Brazil | Jan 28, 2016 |
Stepan Konev wrote:
Folks,
When reading this thread, I noticed a wording: "arising from the _present_ document/ agreement/ contract".
Until this moment, I was sure it was a Russian "loan translation" (in Russian, "the present" often means "this"). However it was used by a translator whose languages are French and English. Very surprising observation. (Jenny Forbes, nothing personal, just linguistic curiosity)
So, my question is: Is it ok to say 'present' [contract or document] when meaning 'this' in English? (The present document=this document?).
In PT-BR it is fairly normal to use, in agreement "the present" document, agreement, contract, and people now and then omit the present WHAT! (Though I guess nobody would ever dare to do it in PT-PT.)
PT-BR: Se qualquer cláusula do presente (contrato) for determinada como (sendo) invalida...
EN: If any clause in the present (contract) is determined as (being) invalid...
Literal translation, to highlight the omissions, normal in PT-BR.
Just FYI, PT-PT is VERY rigid on - as I state it - taking words at face value. That's one (IMO the major) difference between the two variants, which leads to countless misunderstandings across the Atlantic, and jokes too.
And yes, "presente" in PT ALSO means a "gift"
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Thank you José Henrique Lamensdorf
This is very interesting for me indeed. Kind of discovery =)
I thought it was pure 'Russian accent'. But it looks like normal for _other than one_ languages.
To complete my discovery, I would appreciate English natives also express their opinion.
[Edited at 2016-01-28 21:19 GMT]
| | | | | El/la presente | Jan 28, 2016 |
Spanish legalese is built on and around "presente": "Por medio de la presente/por la presente" (referring to "carta", which may well be omitted).
I translate from English and only very occasionally have I ever encountered "present" in this context. English uses "this/said/mentioned/hereunder" and similar expressions.
| | | | | Has been used before, not wrong, but consider carefully | Jan 29, 2016 |
Stepan Konev wrote:
Folks,
When reading this thread, I noticed a wording: "arising from the _present_ document/ agreement/ contract".
Until this moment, I was sure it was a Russian "loan translation" (in Russian, "the present" often means "this"). However it was used by a translator whose languages are French and English. Very surprising observation. (Jenny Forbes, nothing personal, just linguistic curiosity)
So, my question is: Is it ok to say 'present' [contract or document] when meaning 'this' in English? (The present document=this document?).
Sorry to disturb your discussion, but this is real interesting for me.
Thank you.
See the below links (do a Ctl+F search for "present"). Yes, present can be used. As with other legalese, you need to ask yourself if using "present" instead of "this" could lead to ambiguity. It would certainly be unwise to use "present agreement" if more than one agreement had been referenced.
http://arbitrateatlanta.org/sample-arbitration-clauses/
http://therealnews.com/media/trn_2013-06-01/1953%20London%20Debt%20Agreement%20on%20German%20external%20debts_Agreement%20signed%20by%20negotiators%20Feb%2027%20in%20London%20ratification%20by%20all%20respective%20govts%20to%20follow.pdf
http://www.chsh.com/fileadmin/docs/publications/Welser/Welser-Molitoris_AYIA_2012.pdf
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| Present in Romanian Legalese | Jan 29, 2016 |
Merab Dekano wrote:
I translate from English and only very occasionally have I ever encountered "present" in this context. English uses "this/said/mentioned/hereunder" and similar expressions.
That is my experience, too, I have only seen "present" in English translations, but not English originals.
Romanian Legalese is full of presents, as well, but thanks to adjectival inflections (declensions) for gender and number, most times, but not always, it is clear what that "present" thing is.
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Preston Decker wrote:
See the below links (do a Ctl+F search for "present").
Great! A bit surprising but very useful information for me.
Thank you
[Edited at 2016-01-29 07:06 GMT]
| | | | | | | Google vs. Linguee | Jan 29, 2016 |
I've never liked Linguee, but I accept that this may just be a personal eccentricity.
However, Google is actually much better at answering the questions being asked here.
If you go to https://www.google.de/advanced_search, you can type in "contract" under "contains these words" and "herefrom" under "contains this exact word or phrase".
Then select "English" as language an... See more I've never liked Linguee, but I accept that this may just be a personal eccentricity.
However, Google is actually much better at answering the questions being asked here.
If you go to https://www.google.de/advanced_search, you can type in "contract" under "contains these words" and "herefrom" under "contains this exact word or phrase".
Then select "English" as language and "United States" or "United Kingdom" as country.
Google will then provide you with a list of documents very strongly supporting or casting doubt on your choice of words and helping you to see how it is used by English-speaking writers (not translators).
Particularly when selecting "US", some foreign material gets mixed in, but it is generally quickly recognizable.
In this case, "herefrom" is very clearly standard legalese in both the UK and the US.
The problem with Linguee for people translating into English is that sites from other countries and in other languages are very often translated into English, but English-language sites are very rarely translated into other languages (at least apart from Spanish [US] and French [Canada]). That means that most of what Linguee will spit out in response to searches for translations into English will be nothing but a mixed bag culled randomly from the Internet (i.e., it will consist mostly of garbage from poorly translated websites).
At any rate, when I see "herefrom" I think of the German "daraus" = deriving from the previously mentioned word, the previous clause or the previous sentence.
For example: "The provisions of this Contract, and any contract or agreement herefrom" = any contract or agreement deriving from this contract or, alternatively, the provisions of this contract. Sometimes "herefrom" is synonymous with "the present contract" and sometimes it isn't. ▲ Collapse
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Michael Newton wrote:
What about "henceforth"?
Hereinafter = in the remainder of this document
Henceforth = from this moment onwards
| | | | | I agree, sort of | Jan 29, 2016 |
Michael Wetzel wrote:
The problem with Linguee for people translating into English is that sites from other countries and in other languages are very often translated into English...
Yes, but fortunately Linguee provides the source of each individual instance of the term you're looking for. In the case of my language pair (IT-EN) this enables me to check if the "answer" I'm looking at is in fact only some other translator's unsuccessful attempt at also translating the same word from IT-EN.
With that caveat, I find Linguee very useful. So far Linguee has been free but there's no advertising and I don't get any annoying emails. I wonder how long they'll be able to keep that up?
| | | | | From my collection of silly jokes | Jan 29, 2016 |
"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery. Today is a gift. That's why it's called the present."
| | | | | Yes we do need to avoid legalese | Jan 29, 2016 |
I avoid legalese when translating and I would not normally use "hereanything".
Our job as translators is to convey the meaning of the text, to communicate, not to slavishly mirror a badly written source text.
I don't get this whole "it's legal, you have to be literal, you can't change anything" approach. Does that mean you introduce spelling errors in your translation to match the original?
In English it seems most lawyers write in legalese to keep the cli... See more I avoid legalese when translating and I would not normally use "hereanything".
Our job as translators is to convey the meaning of the text, to communicate, not to slavishly mirror a badly written source text.
I don't get this whole "it's legal, you have to be literal, you can't change anything" approach. Does that mean you introduce spelling errors in your translation to match the original?
In English it seems most lawyers write in legalese to keep the client happy (it can't be to avoid ambiguity, because then they wouldn't get to go to court), but in Scandinavia they generally put things simply in very normal language without the convoluted sentences - and it works.
If they can do it, so can we.
BTW "present" means the document you are reading, as opposed to the one(s) referred to previously. ▲ Collapse
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That's why I described my dislike as possibly or partly a personal eccentricity. Linguee does help users to check its results, but it just seems very inefficient to me.
And even I accept that Linguee is a very good place to start for terms, references and phrases that are genuinely foreign to English and do not appear on any US or UK sites. Material of this kind is, of course, particularly common in legal translations.
| | | | | I cannot disagree more | Jan 29, 2016 |
Chris S wrote:
I avoid legalese when translating and I would not normally use "hereanything".
In English it seems most lawyers write in legalese to keep the client happy (it can't be to avoid ambiguity, because then they wouldn't get to go to court), but in Scandinavia they generally put things simply in very normal language without the convoluted sentences - and it works.
If they can do it, so can we.
BTW "present" means the document you are reading, as opposed to the one(s) referred to previously.
Legalese is a language in the language, of course you have to know it...,
[Edited at 2016-01-29 09:26 GMT]
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Tom in London wrote:
If the above is an example of "International English" I don't think lovers of languages (English and all others) have much to be concerned about.
Do you really think it's acceptable to knock a Lithuanian/Portuguese translator's English?
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