| 주제 내 페이지: < [1 2 3] | Off topic: Are we abusing the word "shall"? 스레드 게시자: Viktoria Gimbe
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katsy
Local time: 16:36
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| I'll drink to that! | Feb 8, 2007 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
And the language will change with or without our permission or blessing, I'm afraid. If people don't feel the need for nuances, they will inevitably wither and die, like anything else that is unused or neglected.
And ultimately, despite what I said above, if the wider English speaking population decides it can live without a distinction between imply and infer, then so be it, something will spring up to compensate for the loss if need be.
or without a distinction between shall and should
(each unto his own....)
People have been wailing about the demise of English pretty much since either wailing or English started, I forget which came first. But it struggles manfully on, just about keeping its head above water anyway.
All we can do is endeavour (or mebbe just plain ol' try) to write sound, coherent translations and if people pick up something good from that, great, an' if they don't, well, like, whatever 
I would say, well, at least we won't be able to say we didn't try.
Katsy
| | | | | Oh Lordy, I just thought of another factor :-) | Feb 8, 2007 |
katsy wrote:
I do think that a sentence 'shall I get a job or take a gap year' - which was I think your original example - is actually wrong.... the 'shall' does not ask for advice, which the 'should' clearly does.
Ah. Gotta kinda disagree there. Like the OED, I see no reason why "shall" should (arrgghh) not be viewed as asking for advice (see page 1 of thread).
True, it sounds a bit odd to me (but see below), and true, I prefer the approach you described before whereby a) shall could be said to be seeking confirmation of a course of action previously more or less determined (as in the declarative use - you shall go the ball) whereas b) should is more appropriate for general advice and guidance (as in declarative use - I should go the ball...., but I might not).
The further point that has just hit me after 2 pages of this, is that in V's original Q, there is an "or".
This is probably why it sounds odd to use "shall", I think. How can you be seeking approval, guidance, advice or anything else when presenting two options in such a way? Because of the way (and I think we agree on this, more or less), a "shall" question is seeking any of those things (advice, approval, etc) on a course of action you've more or less decided upon, positing a choice of actions makes no sense. That is why it sounds odd.
Whereas (and you two may disagree here) a simple "shall/should I take a gap year?" is a different matter, and I think we've probably thrashed that structure to death
| | | | katsy
Local time: 16:36
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| are we reaching a working agreement? | Feb 9, 2007 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
The further point that has just hit me after 2 pages of this, is that in V's original Q, there is an "or".
This is probably why it sounds odd to use "shall", I think. How can you be seeking approval, guidance, advice or anything else when presenting two options in such a way? Because of the way (and I think we agree on this, more or less), a "shall" question is seeking any of those things (advice, approval, etc) on a course of action you've more or less decided upon, positing a choice of actions makes no sense. That is why it sounds odd.
Yes, I think you're perfectly right..... if you posit a choice of actions, then you can hardly ask for approval at the same time. Maybe, since (as I said before) most modals have more than one possible meaning, the idea of 'do you approve of this idea...' zaps or at least interferes with the idea of 'give me some advice'. (sorry if I appear to go off on a tangent here, but 'will' for example does have the idea of 'will' in it (You will do what I tell you) and also future; in my example the coexistence of the two is relatively coherent - I thnk- but sometimes one idea must 'drown out the other' - for example 'when we go out together, he will insist on paying' - here his irritating desire to pay makes a future interpretation impossible unless there's a context like 'We're going out tonight, and I just know he will insist on paying'). Another example 'you must be Charlie' (in a greeting, not at a play rehearsal!!)- you would have to be pretty clever to make that mean 'you are obliged to be Charlie')
Whereas (and you two may disagree here) a simple "shall/should I take a gap year?" is a different matter, and I think we've probably thrashed that structure to death
No doubt, so I'll just stick by what I said before. Even if I agree that (and here I too have shifted my position a bit) in many cases, in particular everyday conversation, it's probably not worth worrying too much about... Your concerns about infer/imply , (which have their parallels in French - e.g. opportunité/occasion) are also important - I would see those confusions as possibly more likely to diminish the beauty, or at least the scope of language to say what we want to say, which is one of Viktoria's main concerns
Katsy
| | | | katsy
Local time: 16:36
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| am I going to have to backtrack? | Feb 9, 2007 |
Another thought that came to me: reflecting on the multiple meanings of modals...
Here are some examples for Charlie and Viktoria (the others seem to have given up!)
What if I say:
Shall I take a gap year? Or shan't I?
Seems to me I'm going (maybe!!) to have to admit that here I am asking for advice..... (the choice being not between two activities, but doing or not doing one thing). In other words, the 'advice' idea may get the better of the 'asking for approval' idea.... See more Another thought that came to me: reflecting on the multiple meanings of modals...
Here are some examples for Charlie and Viktoria (the others seem to have given up!)
What if I say:
Shall I take a gap year? Or shan't I?
Seems to me I'm going (maybe!!) to have to admit that here I am asking for advice..... (the choice being not between two activities, but doing or not doing one thing). In other words, the 'advice' idea may get the better of the 'asking for approval' idea.
But again what about:
Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? Or should I?
Am I asking two different questions here?
Just a thought.... ▲ Collapse
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| A question of instinct? | Feb 21, 2007 |
I came across a useful section in a book I am reading at the moment: "Troublesome Words" (Bill Bryson).
When referring to the Fowler brothers he states "you either understand the distinction instinctively or you do not, that if you don't, you probably never will, and that if you do, you don't need to be told anyway" (I can't say I totally agree with these sentiments).
My understanding is as follows:
When you are expressing simple futurity, 'shall' is used ... See more I came across a useful section in a book I am reading at the moment: "Troublesome Words" (Bill Bryson).
When referring to the Fowler brothers he states "you either understand the distinction instinctively or you do not, that if you don't, you probably never will, and that if you do, you don't need to be told anyway" (I can't say I totally agree with these sentiments).
My understanding is as follows:
When you are expressing simple futurity, 'shall' is used in the first person and 'will' in the second and third persons. When expressing determination you do the reverse.
Bryson's concludes that it is not possible to have binding rules to distinguish between the two and that it is "no longer all that important anyway".
I am not sure many of the linguists here, myself included, share this view. In any event, his book "Troublesome Words" is quite a good read and informative. I particularly liked his explanation of distinguishing between "that" and "which" and how usage differs between US and UK English (but that's for another day!) ▲ Collapse
| | | | katsy
Local time: 16:36
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| thanks for the Bryson reference | Mar 4, 2007 |
Adam Burman wrote:
My understanding is as follows:
When you are expressing simple futurity, 'shall' is used in the first person and 'will' in the second and third persons. When expressing determination you do the reverse
You will see from my previous posts that I would not agree with that. However, I wonder if the difficulty in all this does not reside in the fact that 'shall' and 'will' have multiple meanings, which depend on the context (the sentence structure itself) and situation (who is speaking, about what, to whom, in what tone, and the general subject of the verbal/written exchange). I would not agree with Bryson that it is 'probably not all that important', but even that sentiment depends on the context and situation.... I tend to feel that we have to accept that we can't lay down universally applicable rules and that we have to judge each case, knowing, however, that there are a number of interpretations possible, which we would 'test' against the occurrences that we find.
Hope this is clear. Have a nice day.
| | | | | For technical manual translations | Apr 18, 2007 |
Good thread. In Italian-English translations of instruction manuals, shall is used (or abused??) when translating instructions "to be carried out" by personnel, etc. It comes in very handy.
Robert
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