| Páginas no tópico: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Rates going down Tópico cartaz: Hannele Marttila
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Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X) 
Polônia
Local time: 12:41
inglês para polonês
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Paula McMullan wrote:
This discussion puts me in mind of a tip I was once told on a negotiation skills course. When your initial offer is rejected, INCREASE it not decrease it. It worked for the trainer when he was putting in an offer for a house because it panicked the owner. I realise that there is a lot more competition in the translation market, but an interesting tactic perhaps nonetheless!
By using this tactic you're basically saying "I'm being dishonest".
| | | | Gema Garcia
Espanha
Local time: 12:41
espanhol para francês
+ ...
| I agree with you | Dec 10, 2013 |
Thanks for your answer, and sorry not writing you earlier but I was starting using proz.com page and didn't notice your answer before...
I try not to change my rates but it is impossible to get work with normal rates, agencies always ask for rates less than 0,05 per word! I gave my rates to a law firm even at half my rates and didn’t even work, they wanted even lower prices! I am talking about 20€ for documents of 350 words like an extract from the criminal records...So in that ... See more Thanks for your answer, and sorry not writing you earlier but I was starting using proz.com page and didn't notice your answer before...
I try not to change my rates but it is impossible to get work with normal rates, agencies always ask for rates less than 0,05 per word! I gave my rates to a law firm even at half my rates and didn’t even work, they wanted even lower prices! I am talking about 20€ for documents of 350 words like an extract from the criminal records...So in that case what should we do?
Stanislav Pokorny wrote: Gema Garcia wrote:
I am starting as translator of French to Spanish and I don´t know very well how to deal with rates. A formation enterprise has a client who needs a project translation but they propose to me to work at 50%. It has surprised me because we work with rates and no one should propose that...But what can I do? Do I have to incraese my rates? I would not like to lose the opportunity... Hi Gema, you would not like to miss your opportunity to what? Working at half your usual rate? Remember that if you agree to work at half your rates at the beginning, it will be extremely hard, if not impossible, to raise your rate to your usual one later on. Another idea would be: if you can persuade your electricity and gas provider, as well as your local grocer, petrol station (or public transport service) etc. to halve their prices, you might as well agree to work at 50%. Otherwise you may find yourself working day and night, struggling to pay your bills all the time. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Gema Garcia
Espanha
Local time: 12:41
espanhol para francês
+ ...
| Thanks all of you for your quotes | Dec 10, 2013 |
I am one of the translators starting at 2009, and I can tell you that It has been and it is still very difficult to get clients at normal rates. I set my rates at 0,10 for sworn FrenchSpanish translation and now my rates are 0,08 and I even have difficulties to get clients. And for the rest of rates is the same. So I still try to find the way to adapt rates at this crisis period but don't want to decrease my rates...I love this profession and never will work less than it worth.
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Hi Jeff,
You edited out the content of the post so I'm assuming you won't mind if I clean it out.
Very best/Mark |
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Christine Andersen
Dinamarca
Local time: 12:41
Membro (2003)
dinamarquês para inglês
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| Rates are not the only criterion - and we must raise awareness of what we do | Dec 11, 2013 |
I am appealing to everyone to raise their lowest rates in 2014, in the wake of stories in the press about big agencies who ask translators to lower their rates, and then announce that they are doing so well that they can pay their CEOs enormous bonuses.
I am not attacking outsourcers who are making real efforts to pay fairly in a difficult market - they have my respect.
But somehow we must stop the race to the bottom.
The trouble is that quality is not always link... See more I am appealing to everyone to raise their lowest rates in 2014, in the wake of stories in the press about big agencies who ask translators to lower their rates, and then announce that they are doing so well that they can pay their CEOs enormous bonuses.
I am not attacking outsourcers who are making real efforts to pay fairly in a difficult market - they have my respect.
But somehow we must stop the race to the bottom.
The trouble is that quality is not always linked to high rates. At the same time we are not allowed to form syndicates to fix rates, and some agencies exploit this.
It is very difficult to lower your standards. I am afraid of getting into bad habits, or saving errors in my TMs, or that clients will complain, and then we have to waste time on hassle to sort it out... So I do my best every time! I am sure lots of others feel the same way.
This means we risk delivering our best translation quality - our only translation quality - at rates that undercut clients who do pay fairly.
We must support the agencies who still look at quality and pay for it. I don't know any easy solutions, but those of us who specialise in subject areas or work with languages where there is not too much competition must insist on fair rates, and the others must insist when they can.
Set rates up for rushed jobs - when the client does not have time to look for anyone else. Bargain - do not simply accept low rates without a discussion.
And perhaps we will have to make our presence felt by going public - write in the media, get journalists to run articles about translation, whatever.
Perhaps we need to do some serious marketing to end clients and the general public - together if possible.
Lawyers, medics, teachers and dozens of other trades and professions still depend on human brains and skills, and their salaries are not dropping through the floor. Somehow we need to raise awareness and get ourselves valued.
I don't know any easy answers, but I hope it helps to formulate the questions. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
Estados Unidos
Local time: 06:41
espanhol para inglês
+ ...
Don't be fooled by the notion that everyone is lowering their rates. In general, translators are not stupid people.
[Edited at 2013-12-11 15:58 GMT]
| | | | | Would we be having this discussion if there was a problem? | Dec 28, 2013 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
Don't be fooled by the notion that everyone is lowering their rates. In general, translators are not stupid people.
[Edited at 2013-12-11 15:58 GMT]
Jeff, I respect your opinion, but I don't believe it. If not everyone is lowering their rates, would we be having this discussion at all?
If the translation industry was going well, we wouldn't feel the need to write about how well we can pay the bills every month, either because we would be satisfied and forget about it (no need to change,) or because everybody would be bored to read threads would say all the same thing. Bad news spread faster than good news, as people say.
It's clear why we're being pressed hard today. In the past, the translation world had a healthier ecosystem: the lower-end jobs would pay better, and junior translators would earn enough money to keep specializing and become senior translators. I believe that's the path the senior translators took here. No one starts "senior," right?
From what I can grasp here, the Internet is messing up with this ecosystem: junior translators are being pressed to accept jobs that pay less and less, and they are lacking the money to get more qualified. It's pretty convenient for companies to prevent them to do so: if they get qualified they will need raise their prices, and companies won't be able to compete on price. This also works as a chain reaction: if people are so underpaid they need to accept anything to make end's meet, those companies can press them to work on fields they're not specialized at–legal translations, technical translations, subtitling, etc. This enables these companies to press senior translators to push their prices down.
I also see in this tread (any in many other places) that translators seem to be afraid to tell there's a problem with them: if they disclose that they actually have problems accept low-priced translations, they fear they might be "exposing themselves," giving the message to their clients that they are desperate and that their clients can bargain even further. It's also a matter of pride: they might think their peers will think of them as the "scourge" of the industry, even though this problem happens everywhere.
The problem is, by not sharing their problems, translators are falling prey to a "divide and conquer" strategy. They don't know what's going on with each other, and they start fighting against each other. This effectively prevents them to find a solution and pressure to raise their rates. It's another win-win situation for agencies that charge the client a lot per source word, but can pay lower and lower rates to translators, maximizing their profits–until the market collapses.
[Edited at 2013-12-28 12:14 GMT]
| | | | Helena Chavarria
Espanha
Local time: 12:41
Membro (2011)
espanhol para inglês
+ ...
| We're invisible | Dec 28, 2013 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
Lawyers, medics, teachers and dozens of other trades and professions still depend on human brains and skills, and their salaries are not dropping through the floor. Somehow we need to raise awareness and get ourselves valued.
I think the main problem is that lawyers, doctors, teachers, etc. are in permanent contact with people who can easily check whether or not the professional in question is qualified.
In our profession we are often asked to send scanned copies of our qualifications but, unfortunately, that doesn't always happen. I'm sure there are a great many people around working as translators, with or without stable jobs, who are happy to work for peanuts. And, worse still, many of these people are not aware of the damage their bad translations can cause.
If an unqualified doctor is discovered to be treating patients, charging these people for the medical services they receive, it hits the news. That's not the case in our profession.
If translators could only work if they belonged an professional translator's association and only issue invoices that included their respective membership numbers, then maybe more people would take us seriously.
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DZiW (X)
Ucrânia
inglês para russo
+ ...
| as an abstract notion | Dec 29, 2013 |
I think Helena is right: who is 'translating' something from far beyond? You know him or even her? What kind of relation it is? Can you trust them? Do they? And so on.
Interpreters are better paid not only because they have to look'n'behave properly and process data intensively, but also because of some kind of embodiment of visualization. The real specialist works with real people, no abstractions.
At first I also was surprised that direct local clients and companies (... See more I think Helena is right: who is 'translating' something from far beyond? You know him or even her? What kind of relation it is? Can you trust them? Do they? And so on.
Interpreters are better paid not only because they have to look'n'behave properly and process data intensively, but also because of some kind of embodiment of visualization. The real specialist works with real people, no abstractions.
At first I also was surprised that direct local clients and companies ('in vivo') offered much better rates and conditions than local agencies whereas foreign customers were somewhere in-between. When I talked to a person they told me one thing, yet when I came there they told me better things. Actually, that's why I went 'direct' and I have never felt sorry: no middlemen, no deductions, no regrets, no remorses ▲ Collapse
| | | | Neil Ashby
Espanha
Local time: 12:41
espanhol para inglês
+ ...
| | Translators simply have to smarten up | Dec 30, 2013 |
Have you seen the CNBC program "How I made my millions" recently which handles a huge translation agency that many of us have been working for at some time point?
This agency deducts $10 from each Paypal payment made to translator, however, their prospect (in their own words) is to grow in a corporation earning 500 000 million in a near future. Does it make you somehow think about all these matters? What the program does not mention is that all these earnings are achieved by literally ripp... See more Have you seen the CNBC program "How I made my millions" recently which handles a huge translation agency that many of us have been working for at some time point?
This agency deducts $10 from each Paypal payment made to translator, however, their prospect (in their own words) is to grow in a corporation earning 500 000 million in a near future. Does it make you somehow think about all these matters? What the program does not mention is that all these earnings are achieved by literally ripping off translators who work for them. When somebody tries to negotiate the low rate, they don't even get an answer. Why? The job is gone. There's always some person among the bulk mail receivers who'd accept that. I have sometimes received POs for jobs which also state the charge to the end-customer. It looks approximately like that:
translator: $20
proofreader: $10
The end customer is charged: $95
They were paying me 0.17 US in 2007 and 2008. Then they started to complain a lot and got me down to 0.12. Well, I went for it because most jobs were 30K and 40K words. Just imagine how much of profits I alone have created for these guys! They told recently there were no jobs at such a "huge" rate!!!! and I should get my rate down more which I'm not accepting any longer.
What translators have to realize is that no agency can exist without people who do the real job: translators and proofreaders. It is only up to us to whether to decline or accept the hilarious rates of $ 0.05 or even lower. Why can some agencies earn so much? They have no liability whatsoever to translator, they don't have to cover sick leaves, they don't have to pay any bonuses and there is always some starving buddy who'd take the job for nothing. They can afford even not to pay or to cut the payment. It's like a translator has to do it all and receive the least amount while the middleman takes incredible profits. The end-customers don't have a clue what the situation is. Agencies usually have translator data base which lists many excellent translators. The customer is assured that these guys are doing the work, but it is sent to cheap (the cheapest possible) translators in reality and given to proofread to somebody who has some experience, hence, this costs only a fraction of translation and the bad text is fixed up for almost free.
Most of us are working legally and paying our taxes. We have large bills to cover, and these bills are going up and up. We have to cover all cost for hardware and software. We have to work on Sundays and during holidays, have to do rush jobs, and we have to do this all on our own risk because there's never any guarantee the job will be paid timely, paid in full or paid at all. I cannot see how could somebody possibly lower their rates if they are experienced translators who meet high quality standards.
I wish in the New Year we supported more agencies which pay decent rates and everybody was able to decline humiliatingly small fees. We have to smarten up, because if we all refuse to work for these low rates, the gain will be mutual.
Happy New Year everybody! I hope, next year around this time we can tell the translation community how nicely we have been doing by raising our rates because we did not accept the pressure of global monstrous companies. ▲ Collapse
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The proliferation of agencies and the lack of clarity surrounding the pricing may be among the most important causes of this problem. Otherwise it almost looks like agencies are acting together and enforcing lower rates throughout the market.
Another cause lies in the fact – which proponents of capitalism, democracy etc. tend to ignore – individual translators raising their rates may simply end up without jobs at all unless others do the same at more or less the same time. Uncoo... See more The proliferation of agencies and the lack of clarity surrounding the pricing may be among the most important causes of this problem. Otherwise it almost looks like agencies are acting together and enforcing lower rates throughout the market.
Another cause lies in the fact – which proponents of capitalism, democracy etc. tend to ignore – individual translators raising their rates may simply end up without jobs at all unless others do the same at more or less the same time. Uncoordinated lone heroes will go bankrupt or be phased out of the profession. It would take collective effort to do something.
Such collective effort, however, would need to be based on more serious and substantive premises than the entry-level technobabble about CATs supposedly being cutting-edge technology (and thus CAT software operation being our key professional skill) or the academically questionable mumbo jumbo about professionals supposedly translating only into their native languages, which currently dominates translator marketing.
Right now, translator marketing generally tends to stress obvious things like meeting the deadlines or not botching up the jobs (makes you wonder about the profession in general) or go too far in emphasising the client's right to act like a spoiled child. I've even seen 'your wish is my command' as one translator's slogan in the directory. Something's gotta change. ▲ Collapse
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| What about a list of good agencies? | Dec 30, 2013 |
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
The proliferation of agencies and the lack of clarity surrounding the pricing may be among the most important causes of this problem. Otherwise it almost looks like agencies are acting together and enforcing lower rates throughout the market.
Lukasz, since the number of agencies is increasing, how a new, independent list of agencies that pay the best rates, with them openly disclosed? I realize Proz already has a similar list, but I'm not sure about how credible the results are–and the fees they pay aren't open. Plus, more detailed results are available only if you pay(!)
| | | | saranardo
Itália
Local time: 12:41
inglês para italiano
| 0.02 USD per word... | Dec 30, 2013 |
Hannele Marttila wrote:
Has anybody else found that the rates offered seem to be less than ever, at a time when most countries have a high inflation rate and when we really should be putting rates up?
I've been offered work from 0.05 EUR, this for work which is specialist medical translation, many more examples, but the bottom line is that the hourly rate offered at the moment is around 12 Euros per hour. As a cleaner in the UK would earn around 9-10 euros per hour, this seems a bit low to say the least. I certainly charge more than 0.11 euros per word.
Any views?
Today I turned down an offer to work for a website translation where I was asked to accept a rate of 0.02 USD per word. The work was accepted by another person in nect to no time. The thing is there are loads of people willing to translate for ridiculous rates in Elance & Co, and that is what is ruining the market. As long as there are people willing to accept to work for nothing, there will be people offering those rates.
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Carlos A R de Souza wrote: Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
The proliferation of agencies and the lack of clarity surrounding the pricing may be among the most important causes of this problem. Otherwise it almost looks like agencies are acting together and enforcing lower rates throughout the market.
Lukasz, since the number of agencies is increasing, how a new, independent list of agencies that pay the best rates, with them openly disclosed? I realize Proz already has a similar list, but I'm not sure about how credible the results are–and the fees they pay aren't open. Plus, more detailed results are available only if you pay(!)
I'd totally be in favour of a list of agencies which offer decent contractual terms, decent pay and respect their translators.
On the other hand, I'd be afraid of the system getting gamed. Desperate people would have an incentive to exaggerate their recommendations and positive reviews, while underhanded agencies could exert pressure to be so included.
Personally, I'd like to recommend Lawtank from Switzerland. One-page contract (not all terms are a translator's dream but it works okay), good rates, no hassle, productive and no-nonsense QA. I wish there were more guys like that.
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