| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17] > | The global TM I want... Thread poster: Felipe Gútiez Velasco
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Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 07:20
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| Allow me to explain | Aug 29, 2008 |
Fernando Walker wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
Besides, violating the SATI code of ethics is not illegal in my country. So you don't care about violating confidentiality terms. Thanks, Samuel, for answering. I now know what your position is.
I think you misunderstood me. The fact that I'm willing to admit that something is not illegal doesn't mean I'm in favour of it.
Remember, this subsection of this thread is about whether something is legal or illegal, not about whether it is right or wrong.
The original post said that sharing TMs is illegal. I agree that sharing TMs in breach of client confidentiality is very wrong, but my point is that it is certainly not necessarily illegal.
My comment about violating codes of ethics not being illegal was in response to your post in which you tried to show that sharing TMs (in breach of client confidentiality) in South Africa would be illegal because it violates the SATI code of ethics.
| | | | | Thank you, Samuel | Aug 29, 2008 |
for clarifying your comments. What I said was because I had understood it that way.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 07:20
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Does not belong in this thread | Aug 29, 2008 |
Antonín Otáhal wrote:
Is this chunk of text ... intellectual property of the author of a certain English document I translated to Czech a few years ago?
Your question is very valid but I don't think it belongs in this thread. You are trying to open a discussion about when something is copyrighted and when something is not. The question of copyright is certainly very relevant to this thread, but in my opinion the actual debate about should take place in a separate thread.
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Samuel Murray wrote:
Your question is very valid but I don't think it belongs in this thread. You are trying to open a discussion about when something is copyrighted and when something is not.
No, I was misunderstood then. I wanted to bring the discussion back to what it is about - and to give an example of why a shared TM would not be such a useful thing it might seem without imagining what its actual content would be.
Antonin
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| Plenty of material available | Aug 29, 2008 |
Hi,
I fully agree with Samual that legal issues should not prevent us from "dreaming" about the perfect global TM.
Let's consider, for instance, the European Commission's translation memories, which are publicly available (http://langtech.jrc.it/DGT-TM.html)
How would you like to use them?
... See more Hi,
I fully agree with Samual that legal issues should not prevent us from "dreaming" about the perfect global TM.
Let's consider, for instance, the European Commission's translation memories, which are publicly available (http://langtech.jrc.it/DGT-TM.html)
How would you like to use them?
Would you like to be able to filter the contents by legal act, by subject area, by date?
Daniel ▲ Collapse
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dgmaga wrote: Let's consider, for instance, the European Commission's translation memories, which are publicly available ( http://langtech.jrc.it/DGT-TM.html) How would you like to use them?
Want an honest answer? Given the usual quality of EU English, using them as toilet paper comes to mind. Have to print them out first though, and with 350,000 segments in my language pair that'll take a lot of paper.
| | | | | Authorized sharing | Aug 29, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
Perhaps sharing TMs and other client information is illegal in the United States, but it certain isn't where I come from. Is it illegal in America even if the client puts in in writing that he doesn't mind if you do it?
I am sorry, Samuel, I did not answer earlier to your question about whether a translator can share with the world translations the client has authorized to share. I thought it had been stated before, but it was done in a parallel thread, in Spanish! (Felipe started his participation there and then opened this thread to avoid being off-topic). That's why I was surprised by your question I thought it has been long answered. Of course, you could not have been aware of the discussion on the parallel thread.
To your question: Obviously, if the client has given his/her/its/their authorization to share the translation, there is no lingering confidentiality issue. Further, if both the original and the translation have been published, there is no confidentiality issue after both are published, although asking the client is always a good business practice (and the translator would be well advised checking that he/she is sharing nothing but the final published version; intermediate drafts might still be confidential). Published official documents and their official translations do not raise confidentiality issues, and being paid with public funds, might not raise copyright issues either. This, however, should be verified. I own books where Mexican Codes are translated to English. The contents of these books are copyrighted.
The one thing I am concerned is for translators to remove “identifying information” from the document to make it “sharable.” If he or she indeed removes all non-confidential information, the result will not be confidential any longer, not requiring authorization. But this is a tall order. He or she would be making calls that might, at best, be questionable. The fact that it has been translated in itself is or might be confidential. Even if the final version is not confidential, the intermediates drafts, which might be in the memory you share might. And lets not forget that, even if the info is not confidential, there might be still copyright issues.
Finally, in my opinion, you not only have to ask the client’s authorization to upload your translation memory, but also to use the system, if one ever becomes widely available. Unless the system is completely incapable of recording your queries for matches, let alone the case where the system incorporates your translation made using it into its memory, you must ask your clients their authorization to use it.
Other than that, I have no objections. I will be unable to participate, but t his is just because of the nature of the documents I translate, which, by and large, are covered by the work-product exemption to discovery and the attorney-client privilege. In many cases, I can translate the documents because I have a low-level security clearance. Certainly, I would not be able to share any of those documents.
For those few documents that I translate outside those constraints, I would be interested in a distributed TM system to share translations with a few colleagues, as you suggested.
Best,
Luis
| | | | | An answer and a request for clarification | Aug 29, 2008 |
dgmaga wrote: Hi, I fully agree with Samual that legal issues should not prevent us from "dreaming" about the perfect global TM. Let's consider, for instance, the European Commission's translation memories, which are publicly available ( http://langtech.jrc.it/DGT-TM.html) Daniel
Dear Daniel,
I am somehow concerned with your first sentence I quoted above. With only a slight twisting of words, something that should be easy to do by us translators, I could read it as:
Let’s not worry about legalities. At this time, just let’s dream about the perfect crime.
Yet, as I stated in my message responding to Samuel Murray’s question, there is nothing illegal dreaming about a global TM that is limited to what you suggested in your second sentence I quoted above: plubicly available translation memories, as long as they are not protected by copyright. There are also many other files that can be shared, as I stated in my response to Samuel, although, for the reasons I stated, I will not be able to participate in the project to any large extent.
I would like, however, to ask you a question. Felipe disappeared today from the radar; you, who live not too far from Felipe's declared homeplace, suddenly appear; both of you have complementary skills for a project like this, developing of a macro TM, being one a translator, the other a computer guy; Felipe already has asked for opinions from “Silicon Valley investors”. May I ask whether you have a joint project to do such a development?
First, you must forgive me for being untrustful. It might be due to my legal training. Surely, at this time, the best I can offer is to somehow share Ronnie Reagan’s statement: “Trust but verify.”
And there is nothing wrong if you have such a project. We might, or might not, be interested. But, at least I, we would like to know who are the people postulating some course of action, particularly when we are told to forget about legalities.
Saludos,
Luis
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| Project management | Aug 29, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
So instead of saying "clients will never consent, therefore it is a waste of time to discuss the idea", let's rather say "some clients may give consent, so let's discuss the idea". Then this thread will be useful. Let's more forward. Once a potential problem is identified (eg some clients may not like it), let's not regard it as an insurmountable problem that should let the entire venture grind to a halt.
This is exactly how I feel. Actually, applying basic project management practices to this thread could help us all move forward.
Let's define our project: an online mega TM open to any and all users (perhaps for a fee). Then, let's look at what resources we would need to accomplish the project: we need TMs that are legal to share (that is, either there is no copyright or the translator providing the TM has obtained permission from the client to share the TM).
See? It's not hard. Now, let's see how we can get there.
| | | | | Ah, well.... | Aug 30, 2008 |
Luis Arri Cibils wrote:
I would like, however, to ask you a question. Felipe disappeared today from the radar; you, who live not too far from Felipe's declared homeplace, suddenly appear; both of you have complementary skills for a project like this, developing of a macro TM, being one a translator, the other a computer guy; Felipe already has asked for opinions from “Silicon Valley investors”. May I ask whether you have a joint project to do such a development?
First, you must forgive me for being untrustful. It might be due to my legal training. Surely, at this time, the best I can offer is to somehow share Ronnie Reagan’s statement: “Trust but verify.”
And there is nothing wrong if you have such a project. We might, or might not, be interested. But, at least I, we would like to know who are the people postulating some course of action, particularly when we are told to forget about legalities.
No, all wrong this time. I don't have any joint project with Felipe and I have never met him (Germany is a big country even if it looks small from the States)
Daniel
| | | | | Never dreamed of sharing/selling my customers' materials | Aug 30, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
Then please let me ask you the same question as Felipe: What did your customers say about your intention to share the TMs you use for their jobs? Neither I nor Felipe had every said in this thread that we had previously told our clients that we intend to share their TMs. So asking "what did your clients say when you told them" is silly.
I think it's not silly at all, and for a very simple reason: To be able to share something, you need to have something to share. You cannot offer your neighbour's car to a third person without asking your neighbour first.
The fact that your customers' opinion about this is irrelevant to you really amazes me. If you haven't asked your customers for permission to share the TMs you use for them, it is futile (I did not want to say "silly") to continue talking about the gender of angels.
As for how my customers reacted about my wish to publish some part of their materials... I simply never thought of publishing any part of my customers' contents or materials, and therefore never had a need to ask. I consider every single word or line from my customers to be something entrusted to me for my work, and would never think of sharing the information with others. In my opinion, privacy in translation is like confession: It is not our right to discuss the jobs with anyone. Period.
I think that even if we took texts from a company's website and created aligned memories, we should ask them for permission to offer or sell that materials, as everything is copyrighted... To me, creating and offering/selling memories from aligned material looks very much like photocopying or retyping the text: you are after all transferring it electronically to some other means. Permission is a must.
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Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
Let's define our project: an online mega TM open to any and all users (perhaps for a fee). Then, let's look at what resources we would need to accomplish the project: we need TMs that are legal to share (that is, either there is no copyright or the translator providing the TM has obtained permission from the client to share the TM).
Exactly. But the fact that permission is needed does not seem to be important, at least to Felipe. Personally before I bought/accessed such a memory, I'd want a signed, printed statement declaring that the owners of the text were asked and consent to have their materiales shared/sold this way.
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 07:20
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| You too misunderstood me | Aug 30, 2008 |
Tomás Cano Binder wrote: Samuel Murray wrote: Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
Then please let me ask you the same question as Felipe: What did your customers say about your intention to share the TMs you use for their jobs? Neither I nor Felipe had every said in this thread that we had previously told our clients that we intend to share their TMs. So asking "what did your clients say when you told them" is silly. The fact that your customers' opinion about this is irrelevant to you really amazes me.
I never said that I believe my customers' opinion about this is irrelevant. All I'm saying is that I didn't ask my customers before starting my participation in this thread, and your question implies that I said that I did.
If you haven't asked your customers for permission to share the TMs you use for them, it is futile (I did not want to say "silly") to continue talking about the gender of angels.
I would agree with you, if it were highly unlikely that any client would give permission. I believe, however, that most clients would not object, if they can be assured that their existing rights will not be violated.
| | | | | Hello, people, I am back to fight :-) | Aug 30, 2008 |
Sorry for missing such an incredibly interesting debate, but I took free yesteray for taking my 7 year old child in his birthday to Europa Park. It was great!!!
The whole main entrance of this park is completely covered with photovoltaic cells and you walk 500 meters reading such an unusual things like: solar energy is good, solar energy can change our lives, the solar energy of the Sahara could be enough for everybody, and the like.
Anyway, back to our thread.
Kevin Lossner wrote:
I'll leave that to the folks who have low standards.
Well, everybody has started sometime. It is true, there are Porsche translations, Mercedes translations, Volkswagen translations, Dacia translations and Tata translations. But, have you records of your first translations? It could be interesting (and funny) for all of us, just to keep our first translation and read it the day we retire (by the way, as translator I don´t think I will never retire, probably I will try to take some pro bono things or literary translation for fun).
Kevin Lossner wrote: You are right to bring this up. I have had many conversations with a favorite client of mine who deals with numerous Siemens divisions, and over and over he hears furious demands from heads of divisions that under no circumstances are the resources (TM or terminology) from one group to be used for the benefit of another group. I laugh my back end off when I hear this, because (1) I have translated endless rah-rah documents about a "united company" working together and (2) in this small world of translation, it's a fair bet that many experienced translators have the resources to do just that anyway, and there's nothing to stop it. I see the same material for the same companies from half a dozen agencies or more - the only differences in many cases is what the middleman is willing to take for a cut and what resources the end customer has provided to that particular agent. Sometimes we're even talking about the same document to be translated... on those occasions I figure I'm competing against myself
This is a very usual case, I know. But in this case it is a probleme of content management and the problem is not just with translations but with content in general. There is also the terminology problem, not only with the translations but also with source language.
I think that for both problems the best solution is a web-based open platform, something similar to Wikipedia.
The creators from Wikipedia were genius. They did it. And it works.
I thing that the real problem of our time is that technology, and specially the Internet and the possibilities of sharing knowledge that it implies, is miles away from:
-the legal frame (law has usually a 2 years delay in relation to reality but in this case is 100 years late)
-the psychology of a generation
-lack of political leadership (but who can lead such a new approach to a world government?)
...YET. Do the clients/corporations know? Was their permission requested? I'm just curious. " -quotation.
As soon as I am aware permission was sought. Please, contact TMMmarkekplace
Corporations need to sell commodities, not words. They don´t care at all about translation.
Are these your words or theirs?, quotation.
These are my words, expressing their way of thinking.
[Editado a las 2008-08-30 10:13]
[Editado a las 2008-08-30 10:14]
| | | | | Thank you for your contribution to The TM I want... | Aug 30, 2008 |
Gabriela Mejías wrote:
As critical as it is to be perfectly aware -and let other translators become aware- that it is illegal to share clients' information and thus violate confidentiality. Maybe you don't get reply because both your question and my post on the codes of ethics don't fit here. (sic) The owner of this thread doesn't like to be asked about illegal issues concerning the global TM.
Warm regards,
Gabriela
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